Sprint 6C build up - Page 42 - Alfa Romeo Forum
You are currently unregistered, register for more features.    
 6Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Status: too much DIY to think about cars....
AO Member
 
kammatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Bedfordshire
Posts: 870
Images: 2
cv joints not stub axle !!! its not the same thing
kammatic is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
kevjtd
Status: - Update
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
think i have some you could have/borrow, whatever. but couldn't you just take the driveshaft out and leave the end joint in place? no need to do anything with the bearings or anything then, just cover up the joint end to stop the grease flying out and making a mess inside your front wheels
 
Status: Nice Bloke
AO Silver Member
 
alfa302's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: United Kingdom
County: Kent
Posts: 1,218
Images: 13

Member car:

alfasud V8

Phillip..Theres no need to do anything to the driveshafts apart from strip them down to the end joint/king pin/stub axle call it what you want. Have a look at mine from when I had the cosworth in the Sud you can just make out whats left of the driveshaft you could machine the cup off but thats a personal choice.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg sud14.jpg (73.2 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg sud17.jpg (119.5 KB, 20 views)

Last edited by alfa302; 17-07-09 at 20:06.
alfa302 is offline  
 
Status: Car in bits again...
AO Silver Member
 
Spacenut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 1,566
Images: 14

Member car:

Nova T33/1.5

I agree - I've been giving this some thought for my new uprights ('Sud front wheel bearings and hub, but with the flange machined to fit inside Giulia 105 discs and re-drilled for 4 x 108 PCD), and I have also concluded that the driveshaft ends are not required to retain the bearings. The outer race is contained within the cast upright (interference fit), the hub is fitted from the outside and the special hub nut clamps up against the inner bearing race. So nothing is going to go anywhere, but you will need to find some way of containing the bearing grease.

Machining off the end of a pair of old driveshafts is one way of doing it, which I am considering doing, or maybe just a pair of discs with a bolt (or a plate engaged in the splines) running through the splined driveshaft hole to locate them?

I want to use the 'Sud front wheel bearings on the front of the Green Machine because they would be utterly bulletproof with so little weight on them. Plus they won't wear like my bloody taper roller bearings do , and I can address my less than optimal scrub radius and Ackermann geometry at the same time

Lauren

Alfanauts are GO!!!
Spacenut is offline  
Status: SAGA(Sad Alfa Gits Anonymous.)
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
guiliasuper's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 643
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: United Kingdom
County: Kent
Posts: 3,428
Images: 3
Idea

If you have a choice don't use the Sprint bearings, but get some from a 33. I used to regularly fry the Sprints bearings, mostly the rears, but on one epic Trans Alpine run managed both fronts as well. it was explained to me by a veteran Alfa racer that the suds / sprint "sealed for life" bearings were designed for @ 1-2 hours high speed running and not the 8-12 hours mine were getting, result was vapourised grease . Alfa solved this on the 33 . All the best.
guiliasuper is offline  
Status: Drive it Like you Stole it ;)
Unregistered
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Cyprus
County: Nicosia
Posts: 10,277
Images: 27
one thing less to worry about then
Supercharged16v is offline  
(Post Link) post #1032 of 1863 Old 17-07-09 Thread Starter
Status: finaly on the road in the 6C
AO Silver Member
 
Alfasixnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Market Harborough
County: Leics.
Posts: 2,828
Images: 17

Member car:

Ex 3 Sprints

Thanks guys and gals
I dont want to dismantle my good driveshafts so will wait to see if an old pair turn up (Thanks Kev, I will try to get something more local but thanks for your offer) - or try Laurens idea to just seal the grease in - but I still am not sure how much the "stub axle" contributes to bearing location???? Oh and I will not be doing lots of continuous high speed runs so I'm sure the Sprint bearings will be fine - they are also taking less weight now.
Alfasixnut is offline  
Status: Drive it Like you Stole it ;)
Unregistered
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Cyprus
County: Nicosia
Posts: 10,277
Images: 27
No high speed runs ?????
Supercharged16v is offline  
(Post Link) post #1034 of 1863 Old 17-07-09 Thread Starter
Status: finaly on the road in the 6C
AO Silver Member
 
Alfasixnut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Market Harborough
County: Leics.
Posts: 2,828
Images: 17

Member car:

Ex 3 Sprints

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supercharged16v View Post
No high speed runs ?????
I'm a nice law abiding (mostly) person! Certainly not 8 - 12 hour trans alpine thrashes...... but maybe the odd 1/4 mile and gentle tootling about
Alfasixnut is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
OLD ALF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: -
Posts: 393
Cool it supercharged ,next thing you will be challenging Alfasixnut to a duel at Santapod.
Glad to hear he is not rushing to meet show deadlines.
Young alf
OLD ALF is offline  
Status: Drive it Like you Stole it ;)
Unregistered
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Cyprus
County: Nicosia
Posts: 10,277
Images: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by YOUNG ALF View Post
Cool it supercharged ,next thing you will be challenging Alfasixnut to a duel at Santapod.
Glad to hear he is not rushing to meet show deadlines.
Young alf
Well, I dont know what Santapod is, but given the pictures he posted a while ago when he was drag-racing his muscle sprout and doing wheelies , I believe he still has it in him

Plus I've never seen a Sprint doing wheelies, so...
Supercharged16v is offline  
Status: 1750 Berlina project car...
AO Silver Member
 
Green Berlina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Midlands
Posts: 1,267
Images: 15
Hey Philip, Just been doin' a bit of catchin' up on this weeks comments and noticed the latest bit about the drive shaft ends. It was something that had occured to me way back in the early posts of this thread and on you announcing your intention of the rear/mid engine installation I thought straight away of the front hub bearings needing to be secured in place just like an MGF/TF which uses warmed-over Rover Metro suspension, the front being almost identical to the metro but with naked shaft ends thru the hubs in order to pre-load/secure the sealed bearings into place.
Hope someone can come up with a pair of old outer C/V's for you to pop the guts out of in order to use the empty casings.

Keep your Alfa in good tune, Please drive harder and faster!!!!!!!
Green Berlina is offline  
kevjtd
Status: - Update
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supercharged16v View Post
Well, I dont know what Santapod is, but given the pictures he posted a while ago when he was drag-racing his muscle sprout and doing wheelies , I believe he still has it in him

Plus I've never seen a Sprint doing wheelies, so...
Drag Racing at Santa Pod Raceway UK - Motorsport Venue
 
Status: Car in bits again...
AO Silver Member
 
Spacenut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 1,566
Images: 14

Member car:

Nova T33/1.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by guiliasuper View Post
If you have a choice don't use the Sprint bearings, but get some from a 33. I used to regularly fry the Sprints bearings, mostly the rears, but on one epic Trans Alpine run managed both fronts as well. it was explained to me by a veteran Alfa racer that the suds / sprint "sealed for life" bearings were designed for @ 1-2 hours high speed running and not the 8-12 hours mine were getting, result was vapourised grease . Alfa solved this on the 33 . All the best.
Any idea how Alfa stopped this happening on 33 bearings? Was it a different specification grease? Redesigned grease seals?

Most of my mileage has been on the flat, but overheating may explain why my bearings have run dry on at least one occasion. And then started rumbling

I'd love to do an epic trans-Alpine run one day

Lauren
Spacenut is offline  
Status: Car in bits again...
AO Silver Member
 
Spacenut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 1,566
Images: 14

Member car:

Nova T33/1.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfasixnut View Post
I still am not sure how much the "stub axle" contributes to bearing location????
I might have to think about this some more, but if the hub nut is bearing against the inner race, effectively clamping the bearing between it and the hub, then none of the balls can come loose. The hub nut is torqued to something in excess of 200 lb/ft, and the bearing outer race is an interference fit in the cast suspension upright. As far as I can tell the driveshaft outer casing forms nothing more than an effective rotating grease seal. On early 'Suds the outer hub bolt, which screws into the centre of the splined shaft is only torqued up to around 40 lb/ft. Even the later bolts were only torqued to 60 lb/ft or thereabouts. These are not the torque figures for a highly stressed joint.

As far as I recall, the driveshaft bottoms out in the hub, so will exert no additional force on the bearing.

All of the above reads in a very confused way, but I think I have convinced myself that the driveshaft does not contribute anything to the bearing location

Lauren
Spacenut is offline  
Status: 1750 Berlina project car...
AO Silver Member
 
Green Berlina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Midlands
Posts: 1,267
Images: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spacenut View Post
I might have to think about this some more, but if the hub nut is bearing against the inner race, effectively clamping the bearing between it and the hub, then none of the balls can come loose. The hub nut is torqued to something in excess of 200 lb/ft, and the bearing outer race is an interference fit in the cast suspension upright. As far as I can tell the driveshaft outer casing forms nothing more than an effective rotating grease seal. On early 'Suds the outer hub bolt, which screws into the centre of the splined shaft is only torqued up to around 40 lb/ft. Even the later bolts were only torqued to 60 lb/ft or thereabouts. These are not the torque figures for a highly stressed joint.

As far as I recall, the driveshaft bottoms out in the hub, so will exert no additional force on the bearing.

All of the above reads in a very confused way, but I think I have convinced myself that the driveshaft does not contribute anything to the bearing location

Lauren
Lauren, I see what you are saying, and its a valid point. But..........
I don't have any specific experience with Sud or 33 bearings but most FWD cars of thier era and up to now use very similar front hub bearings. Hence the MG reference.
The driveshaft end/outer C/V has no purpose in retaining grease, the 'sealed for life' bearing has its own seals built in.
Having pushed engine/gearbox/driveshaftless cars around our workshop I know from experience that the inner races (there's two halves in each bearing assembly, see top left pic for the type i'm refering to) can become loose through not having the shaft in place, even on almost new cars, let alone ones with some years and miles on them.
The difference in torque must be down to bearing design/material/shaft length I guess, and therefore varies depending on the tension required on the assembly to hold it all together tight enough to operate without seizing or becoming sloppy. Its all technical stuff that people far more cleverererer than I have spent years perfecting.

I therefore conclude that Sixnut needs to fit shaft ends thru his front bearings in order to stop them from self-destructing.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Wheel_Bearings_in_Roller_and_Ball_Type.jpg (44.5 KB, 6 views)
Green Berlina is offline  
Status: SAGA(Sad Alfa Gits Anonymous.)
Club Member
Membro Premio
 
guiliasuper's Avatar
 
Club Member Number: 643
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: United Kingdom
County: Kent
Posts: 3,428
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spacenut View Post
Any idea how Alfa stopped this happening on 33 bearings? Was it a different specification grease? Redesigned grease seals?

Most of my mileage has been on the flat, but overheating may explain why my bearings have run dry on at least one occasion. And then started rumbling

I'd love to do an epic trans-Alpine run one day

Lauren
Got the answer ... bigger bearings, as fitted to Golf's. All the best.
guiliasuper is offline  
Status: Car in bits again...
AO Silver Member
 
Spacenut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 1,566
Images: 14

Member car:

Nova T33/1.5

Thanks Andrew, that's worth remembering.
Spacenut is offline  
Status: Car in bits again...
AO Silver Member
 
Spacenut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 1,566
Images: 14

Member car:

Nova T33/1.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Berlina View Post
see top left pic for the type i'm refering to) can become loose through not having the shaft in place
Hi Ian - that is exactly the bearing design the 'Sud/Sprint uses - double roller, with a split inner race. However, unlike the cars you are describing, where the driveshaft is used to retain the inboard inner race, if you see what I mean, in the 'Sud the driven hub runs through the centre of the bearing and the hub nut is tightened against the inboard inner race, establishing the 200+ lb/ft preload.

A picture speaks a thousand (badly chosen words), here is a copy of the microfiche from my freinds at Alfa Romeo boxerfreunde.ch | Herzlich willkommen auf boxerfreunde.ch! so you can see what I'm on about.

http://www.boxerfreunde.ch/images/ad...613_pG_600.jpg

The hub and bearings are completely self-contained, and don't rely on the driveshaft to locate them, but although the driven hub contains the bearing grease on the outside, the inner grease seal is open to the elements without the driveshaft in place. This, I believe, is the only issue preventing use of the hubs in a RWD installation.

This concludes the submission for the defence, m'lud

PS - forgot to mention, the 'Sud bearings aren't sealed - they are packed with bearing grease during assembly which is retained by the inner and outer grease seals.

PPS - well done for winning the autotest at NAD - I bet that put a few noses out of joint

Lauren

Last edited by Spacenut; 18-07-09 at 13:57.
Spacenut is offline  
Status: too much DIY to think about cars....
AO Member
 
kammatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Bedfordshire
Posts: 870
Images: 2
hang on im confuddled now,..

are we talking about suds here with inboard brakes and that early type of hub or 6nuts sprint with (i assume?) the more normal hub????

6nut if your car still has sprint / 33 type hubs, you will need to put the cv joint thru to hold the bearing together,....... if you have sud type then see above.

I have come to this conclusion after working on alfa's for 20 years now and seeing first hand front wheel bearings ruined when this is not done. It is common practice in the motor trade to bolt a cv joint thru the front bearing if you have to move a vehicle during an engine or gearbox swap and its own drive shafts are removed.

even when just pushing my sud out the garage to load onto the truck for the body shop, i put cv's thru to hold the bearings!
kammatic is offline  
Status: too much DIY to think about cars....
AO Member
 
kammatic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Bedfordshire
Posts: 870
Images: 2
ps ... im pleased with my spelling as i have just got in from the pub
kammatic is offline  
Status: Car in bits again...
AO Silver Member
 
Spacenut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hampshire, UK
Posts: 1,566
Images: 14

Member car:

Nova T33/1.5

Oops!

You're right - Philip is using the outboard discs...

Please disregard all of the above. I don't know the specifics of the later outboard disc hubs.

I'm an idiot
Spacenut is offline  
Status: 1750 Berlina project car...
AO Silver Member
 
Green Berlina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Midlands
Posts: 1,267
Images: 15
Well done to Kammatic on the spelling after a sesh in the pub

Lauren, your far from an idiot!!!!

If nothing else the last few posts on driveshafts and bearings has been educational. I guess when you drive something as unique/unusual as the Green machine, inboard Sud discs are 'normal', but for folk like myself that are only really familiar with more everyday set-ups like the 'normal' Sprint steering n suspension I guess the inboard Sud set up could be regarded as unusual, which is where the confusion has set in me-thinks.

I think its fair to say that Sixnut needs to put a shaft in each hole and could do worse than take a look under the front of an MGF/TF the next time he sees one, just to see what the hell i've been waffling on about

Case closed your honour!!!

NEXT!!!!!!
Green Berlina is offline  
Status: Nice Bloke
AO Silver Member
 
alfa302's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: United Kingdom
County: Kent
Posts: 1,218
Images: 13

Member car:

alfasud V8

I was wondering what all the confusion was about, I thought am I missing something, now I am enlightened its all to do with inboard and outboard and being I junked my inboard brakes/suspension the day I got the car and went with the 33 sportwangon setup I can't remember what they look like, so I go back to the pictures I posted showing the end shaft of a dismantled drivshaft going through the hub and holding it all together...or am I still missing something.
alfa302 is offline  
Status: 1750 Berlina project car...
AO Silver Member
 
Green Berlina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Midlands
Posts: 1,267
Images: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by alfa302 View Post
I was wondering what all the confusion was about, I thought am I missing something, now I am enlightened its all to do with inboard and outboard and being I junked my inboard brakes/suspension the day I got the car and went with the 33 sportwangon setup I can't remember what they look like, so I go back to the pictures I posted showing the end shaft of a dismantled drivshaft going through the hub and holding it all together...or am I still missing something.
Having studied your pics a little closer, No your not (missing something), thats exactly the same as Rover have done on the MG, just an empty outer C/V joint thru the bearing, held in place with its nut (or should that be sixnut). Simples........
Green Berlina is offline  
Reply

Go Back   Alfa Romeo Forum > Supported Alfa Romeo Models > Technical & Vehicle Assistance > Alfa 33, Sud & Sprint

Tags
build , sprint

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
Replace with
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome