Sprint 6C build up - Page 10 - Alfa Romeo Forum
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

Going with GTcoop on this one, its not a good idea to use your setup, the fuel cell is the way to go and they come in all sorts of shapes and sizes, try a vertical top fill and mount it between the the suspension towers, this would give about 12-18" gap from the fan to the tank.
Regarding the SVA test I had a number of people tell me that as my car has a registration and chassis number it can go for a standard MOT this was confirmed by an MOT inspector and a chap who has built hot rods/ custom cars like mine for years. I have already arranged to take the car to the above tester.
There will be lots of Slips, Trips and Falls along the way but in the end its worth it, I know ..I drove mine for the first time in 8 years last night.
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

Another reason to revise the fuel tank placement is weight distribution. Can you imagine the bias going from neutral to rear-heavy as the fuel in the tank is consumed? It would be very evident in a mid-engined car, especially if it is relatively lightweight.

IMHO it should be closer to the car's centre of gravity/geometry as it was with the original FWD setup, hanging under the back seats.
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

Thanks for all the input re the fuel tank. It is as ever, a compromise. The low flat GTV tank fits under the steering track rods so goes as far back as possible for weight distribution change, (full to empty) and putting it in the front improves the front/rear weight distribution. Having it to one side helps to balance the driver weight slightly. Putting it at the rear would make it far to much rear weight biassed and there is no under rear seat room at all -no rear seat!, as the engine subframe is across there.
I have looked at the Rally Design site and there is a nice vertical 5 gall fuel cell - but the height means that it also would be well in front of the steering arms and up close to the radiator and impeding the airflow through it? .......
At the front is the reinforced big rubber/steel bumper, the front cross member of the bodyshell, the front cross member of the control arms and the radiator. I also intend to put a steel frame acoss the front of the tank and a steel cover over the top.
Re the MoT I am expecting it to be regarded as an engine change and so not need an SVA. (My V8 Sprite has always gone through on that basis)
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

nice work mate, you seem to be getting on pretty nicely
re the debate (or not ) on the fuel tank location, i think it won't be as critical as it could be if you were going to enter it into racing or anything. even on a track day it's not as though the handling will change from corner to corner, not by enough to change the car from an ocean liner to a speedway bike , and it seems like it will be nice and low down and pretty near the cars centre.
near the back around the original position may have caused a bit too tail happy a ride, should be ok i would have thought .
keep up the good work
 
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

"Re the MoT I am expecting it to be regarded as an engine change and so not need an SVA. (My V8 Sprite has always gone through on that basis)"

I don't know much about this SVA malarky but your V8 sprite still has its engine and fuel tank in its original position (albeit with twice the amount of cylinders).
Its coming on fine and whatever and however it turns out it'll still be admired by many an Alfanut . My 2p worth on the fuel tank issue having worked in, on and around crash repairs for the last 22 years is that if you must put it up front and use an Alfa tank in order to keep cost down and retain as much Alfaness as you can , then please at least try to source a plastic deformable tank (off of a later Alfa maybe?) so that a least if some fool should pull out in front of you or loose it on a circuit across your path, then the tank should stay intact keeping its fuel inside rather than turning your 6 cylinder beastie into an Alfa inferno .

Keep your Alfa in good tune, Please drive harder and faster!!!!!!!
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

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"Re the MoT I am expecting it to be regarded as an engine change and so not need an SVA. (My V8 Sprite has always gone through on that basis)"

I don't know much about this SVA malarky but your V8 sprite still has its engine and fuel tank in its original position (albeit with twice the amount of cylinders).
Its coming on fine and whatever and however it turns out it'll still be admired by many an Alfanut . My 2p worth on the fuel tank issue having worked in, on and around crash repairs for the last 22 years is that if you must put it up front and use an Alfa tank in order to keep cost down and retain as much Alfaness as you can , then please at least try to source a plastic deformable tank (off of a later Alfa maybe?) so that a least if some fool should pull out in front of you or loose it on a circuit across your path, then the tank should stay intact keeping its fuel inside rather than turning your 6 cylinder beastie into an Alfa inferno .
can see the sense in the plastic tank for safety, what about a 156 one? plenty now in the scrappies, and they are plastic









or wrap it in kevlar
 
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

should've used the 2.4JTD derv
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

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should've used the 2.4JTD derv
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

Thanks again for all the input re the fuel tank - I am still in a quandary, as I would prefer a plastic modern tank preferably Alfa, but they seem to be wide and flat so will not fit into the Sprint front - however I have done another check on the dimensions of the rally design dragster fuel cell tank, and it may fit sideways to one side of the engine bay, and have more space between it and the radiator. Ho hum .....if I can sell some bits on e-bay then I could afford it!
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

Just to confuse you some more most of my stuff came from the states. With the exchange rate at the moment its still worth buying in, try SUMMIT RACING or JEGS you could even try EBAY.COM for the fuel cell as I have had loads sent over and most private sellers will send bits over listed below $50 so no vat or tax. I have some friends who have a brakers yard I will give them a call and see if they have any plastic tanks that are along your lines don't hold your breath as most of the time they stick a pick axe in them to drain them.
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

Come on guys, lets not kill this project before it gets on the road.

SVA could be avoided by claiming "radically altered" status (like the Custom car boys do). Under the DVLA rules, points are awarded for retaining items such as chassis, engine, gearbox, suspension etc.

chassis or body shell (body and chassis as one unit - monocoque ie direct replacement from the manufacturer) (original or new) = 5 points
suspension = 2 points
axles = 2 points
transmission = 2 points
steering assembly = 2 points
engine = 1 point

You need 8 points to retain your current registration and avoid being issued a Q plate and have to submit the car for SVA.

By my reckoning, Sixnut's 6C has 11 points - original chassis (albeit modified/braced), original suspension (at least at the front, and you could argue that the 164 struts are identical in function to the Sprint), original axles (ditto for front, arguable at the back) and steering assembly.

As for fuel tanks - yes, I accept all the safety arguments, but don't talk about mid-engined weight distribution unless its from experience. My fuel tank sits over the front axle line - there's nowhere else for it to go. My weight distribution, with 4 gallons reserve fuel, is 54% rear, 46% front. With a full tank of fuel this distribution changes by no more than 2%. In normal road use conditions this difference is negligible.

My fuel tank is TIG welded aluminium (I needed it to be shaped around the chassis to clear the steering rack and front suspension mounts), with no internal baffling and no safety foam (which would interfere with my float type sender). The tank is cradled by 30mm box section triangulation each side, and 20mm box fabrications supporting the radiator in front. I'm not proud of the fact that I have smacked the nose of the Nova into an embankment, but there was no loss of integrity in the tank - all I had was a holed radiator and no chassis damage (the fibreglass bodywork took the brunt of the impact).

So please, let's remain positive about this project - there are many hot rods and specials out on the roads which openly flout the regulations, but Sixnut is doing all the right things with the Sprint, and its going to be great when its done.

Lauren

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Re: Sprint 6C build up

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Come on guys, lets not kill this project before it gets on the road.

I don't think anyone here is trying to kill this project. On the contrary I think most people here will have the same admiration for Alfasixnut as i do for taking on this project

However the end result of how the 6C will handle, brake, steer, etc is a totally unknown quantity until he actually gets this car on the road so it can't be compared to your Nova kit car. The Nova's been around for over 30 years and has evolved into the finished article over this period. The chassis's designed to have the engine in the rear and the tank up front.

Don't letting blinding enthusiasm cloud your judgement when it comes to safety. The type and postion of the tank that Alfasixnut proposed to use is not safe. Not just for the occupants of his car but if he were to collide with another and it caught fire. In the UK we have a very relaxed regulations on what is allowed to be driven on the public roads. In other countries a car with such extensive modification would need to be rigourously tested before it would be allowed to go on the road.

Don't want to sound anal here but driving a car can on public roads can be as dangerous as a waving about loaded gun. If the car doesn't handle, brake, steer properly and you've got a potential fire bomb up front to set the whole thing ablaze then it doesn't bare thinking about the consequences
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

Oooh, Its starting to get *****y.

At the end of the day this car and others like it will only be safe as the builders conscience and from what i have read,I think Alfasixnut has a conscience. So with or without our advice it will be one hell of a nice safe car.
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

I think we have more to worry about from the Vauxhall Corsa crew than a front end fuel tank when driving on the roads...BUT point well made and taken .....anyhow, on a lighter note the 155 also had a plastic tank that (from memory) wasn't wide and thin, in fact i think it was slightly triangular shaped and while it is a long time since I laid under a 155, memory serves it might go up front.
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

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Oooh, Its starting to get *****y.


Absolutely not ........ we're all just a bunch of Alfa nutters sharing our opinions


Anyway there's nothing wrong with a bit of healthy debate and the odd constructive criticism The forum would be a boring place if we all just agreed with each other and spouted niceties.
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

Point taken 302. Sorry if it came across that way.

I also take your points on board GTcoop, but you should note that I have only used the bodyshell of a Nova kitcar, everything else was designed from the ground up by myself. Naturally I have had a lot of help and advice from professional vehicle engineers, but I have had full control of the parameters determining vehicle behaviour (calculating roll centres, change on CofG, spring rates, camber/castor etc.). Even if I hadn't, I would not be in comfortable position that modern kitcar builders are, as the Nova was designed to use an unmodified VW Beetle chassis, which handled extremely badly to start with and doesn't improve under a Nova. A succession of manufacturers over the years have failed to do any kind of development on the car (which had the engine at the very back, and the fuel tank moved from its original nose mount to a location behind the seats. Safe in a shunt, but unfortunately not so good when the aircooled VW engine caught fire, which it did regularly!)

Fuel tank placement on any car is a packaging problem. For a mid engine car there are even fewer locations that can be used, as the engine falls within the area normally used for passenger space. The FIAT X-1/9 puts the tank vertically between the seats and the engine. This was done mainly to increase the storage area in the front compartment (the spare wheel also went behind the seats) rather than maintain the dynamic balance. In fact, X-1/9s handle better with the spare wheel in the nose, I have heard.

The VW-Porsche 914 put its tank in the nose. Lambos and Fezzas (also the Stratos) have variously placed dual tanks either side of the engine compartment behind the doors. Handy if you can get enough protection around the sides, but clearly a side-impact problem, particularly in a small vehicle like the 6C.

So you are left with little choice but front or rear placement of the tank. With the Sprint engine subframe underneath and a suitable cage above, I don't see why this location can't be used. Mid-engined cars are not commonplace on our roads, and it may seem funny to todays FWD drivers, but not so long ago even RWD cars had fuel tanks slung out behind them to avoid the voluminous back axle and driveshafts, and for every car suffering a frontal impact there is (presumably) another car having a rear end shunt!

I agree that driving on our roads may be like playing Russian Roulette, but the one thing I have discovered is that car manufacturers do not necessarily design safe, dynamically stable cars, particularly when that conflicts with profit, and you would be very surprised how good a car that you have designed yourself can be (I was). All vehicles are a compromise in terms of handling, safety, passenger comfort and price, but the latter requirements have come to dominate over the last few years, and I think it shows.

I'm sorry, I'm just rambling now. This is a discussion forum and I was trying to be constructive, but some of the comments touched a nerve that's all. I shouldn't get so het up about such things - please, just ignore me in future!

Lauren
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

I have been reading this thread with great interest from the beginning and I would never have imagined that somebody would accuse me of being negative for "thinking out loud". Jealous of Alfasixnut and his courage yes, obviously not knowledgeable enough for the company of some people but envious and negative about his project definitely NOT.-
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

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Point taken 302. Sorry if it came across that way.

I also take your points on board GTcoop, I'm sorry, I'm just rambling now. This is a discussion forum and I was trying to be constructive, but some of the comments touched a nerve that's all. I shouldn't get so het up about such things - please, just ignore me in future!

Lauren
Your comments certainly didn't touch a nerve with me so ramble away My response wasn't intended as a rebuke either.

You base your comments on your own practical experiences and from what you've said you certainly sound like you know what's what ......

I've become a bit paranoid about vehicle safety after being involved in quite a bad road accident early last year that's left me with a minor but permanent lower back injury. Someone piled into the back of me while I was stationary in a traffic queue and shunted me into a large fully laden van. The car I was driving was only 2 weeks old and the front end was totally destroyed by the secondary impact. When I saw the post with the picture of the tank in the front of the 6C I couldn't help but think how that car would stand up in a similar shunt.

I know that none of us set out to be involved in an accident. That was my only one in over 27 years of driving and I was glad I was in a modern car with a 5 star Ncap rating when it happened. Car manufacturers have to put new cars through rigourous crash test trials as part of their type approval process and although there are vastly varying safety standards between different models, all have to meet or exceed a minimum standard.
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

Sorry to hear about your accident, I do understand your paranoia, I am currently crawling around wet corners at speeds that would embarrass octagenarians for much the same reasons

Having driven only old classic (and some not so classic, but still old) cars all my life I guess I have come to terms with the safety issues that they pose. Virtually none would pass a modern crash test, or conform to SVA, or meet todays safety legislation, but allowances are made by the authorities which allow them to continue to be used on the road. In choosing to use such vehicles I suppose I am accepting the increased risk.

Sixnut's Sprint comes from this era and so could not realistically hope to conform to modern requirements, but there is no reason why attempts shouldn't be made to improve matters. I have tried on Green Machine to ensure that I conform to as much current legislation as I can, even though I don't need to, and it would be sensible for anyone embarking on this sort of adventure to do the same. I am also mindful of the fact that there are an army of legislators (egged on by the car manufacturers) who are just waiting for suitable test case so that they can ban all kit/modified/special cars from the roads forever, at which point I will start a new life as a pedestrian, so I am determined not to give them the satisfaction if I possibly can!

I guess the other aspect of older cars is the fact that, without the benefit of CAD/CAM, almost without exception, chassis' are over-engineered, with consequent weight penalty. This is certainly the case with Green Machine, which even with a fibreglass body still tips the scales at 830 kg without the driver. It may even be stronger than an equivalent monocoque, but I don't intend to find out any time soon

I'm sorry Alfasudti - please classify my previous comments under "irrational outburst". I know we are all supportive of what Sixnut is doing and want to see his efforts succeed!

Lauren
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

i still think it will be done before mine
 
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

Well!
I really think this forum is GREAT - The level of input is fantastic and that we can share our thoughts on so many levels is a bonus. I thank ALL of you.
Lauren's point about the various fuel tank placements is well made as I look in my garage and see the Mk 1 Sprites tank behind the rear axle with no structure behind (Not even spring hangers as it has forward located quarter elliptics!) and only two "over-rider" style quarter bumpers!
I will need to work on finishing other areas of the car, so the fuel tank will be "in Abeyance" for a while and I will reassess the situation.
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

Stopped by the breakers today and put aside a tank, its plastic has the pump and sender on it and measures 32"x22"x12" yes its a big tank, not sure what its from but was made in Germany. This was the only square'ish tank they had. I would check to see if it fits but I do not have an engine bay anymore, check to see if it fits and let me know if you want it.
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

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I'm sorry Alfasudti - please classify my previous comments under "irrational outburst". I know we are all supportive of what Sixnut is doing and want to see his efforts succeed!
On the contrary, not irrational at all. Just emotionally charged a little. Your opinions on weight distribution regarding the placement of the fuel tank are welcome; surely you have hands on experience on the matter and I have not.

Anyway, after sixnut's last post the weight shift discussion is postponed.
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

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Stopped by the breakers today and put aside a tank, its plastic has the pump and sender on it and measures 32"x22"x12" yes its a big tank, not sure what its from but was made in Germany. This was the only square'ish tank they had. I would check to see if it fits but I do not have an engine bay anymore, check to see if it fits and let me know if you want it.
Hi 302
Many thanks for this - I've checked the engine bay and the maximum size is 20" x 22" by 10" deep so I'm afraid the tank you spotted will be too big. The other complication is that the 164 tank has the pump in it and a fuel return line, the GTV tank has only one fuel pipe . The dragster style fuel cell does have two outlets. ....I think I'll do some more work around the back of the car for a while
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Re: Sprint 6C build up

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Hi 302
Many thanks for this - I've checked the engine bay and the maximum size is 20" x 22" by 10" deep so I'm afraid the tank you spotted will be too big. The other complication is that the 164 tank has the pump in it and a fuel return line, the GTV tank has only one fuel pipe . The dragster style fuel cell does have two outlets. ....I think I'll do some more work around the back of the car for a while
No problem, let me know if you go the fuel cell way and i will point in in the right direction for the fittings and size types.

Eddie
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