33 1.7 16V starting problem

[gralalfafan]

Hi

Some time ago my 33 16V had a big end bearing problem.
I remove the engine from the car, repaired it and few days ago put it back on the car.
I connected everything, and tried to start the car... but it doesnt start
I checked... and rechecked every connection and cant see what´s wrong.
I also tested some of the connections (some that light inside the car)
I changed some parts but had no difference... (Dizzy, cap, rpm sensor, plugs, cables)
I dont have spark on the plugs and the fuel pump doesn´t work (but its fine because I testes with another power source).
I´m lost...

Thanks

Carlos

Edit: my car is a 1990 without cat

[gralalfafan]

I just noticed that the horn also doesn´t work, but it was working before I removed the engine, and I didn´t touch the horns or the wiring that suplies power to them.
All fuses are fine...
Probably it´s all connected...

[brit01]

Have you grounded everything very well?

Lots of electrical issues come down to bad grounding.

When you turn the ignition (does it turn over?) do you get any voltage reading at the starter motor? (or anywhere for that matter)

[LoneWolf33]

Hi,

If there's no spark, and the fuel pump doesn't spin up that may caused by the following:
- ECU not receives the triggering signal from the crank sensor (you wrote it's probably OK)
- Direct positive supply doesn't reach the ECU
- Switched positive supply doesn't reach the ECU
- (as brit01 said) problem with the ECU grounding (central earthing on the engine block,
near the starter motor)

About the horn: did you hear the horn relay engage in the fusebox?

[gralalfafan]

First of all, thank´s for your replys.

Have you grounded everything very well?

I think so...
There are one thick wire comming direct from the negative from the battery, two also thick wires ("brothers") from the ECU wiring, and 3 or 4 black thin wires. All of these are tightened by 2 size 10 nuts, near the starter motor.

When you turn the ignition (does it turn over?) do you get any voltage reading at the starter motor? (or anywhere for that matter)

Yes it does. I have 12V

- ECU not receives the triggering signal from the crank sensor (you wrote it's probably OK)

Yes I think it is.
The original was fine before this, and I also replaced it with one I´m sure its fine because I removed it from a TS engine from a 75 and it was working very well, and since that time it was stored on my garage.

- Direct positive supply doesn't reach the ECU

How can I check this?
Is there any fuse?

- Switched positive supply doesn't reach the ECU

?????

About the horn: did you hear the horn relay engage in the fusebox?

No I dont.
I know there is a relay near the fuses inside the car, but it doent clic. Also all fuses are OK. Yesterday I checked one by one.


Thanks

Carlos

[Supercharged16v]

Mate, are you sure you connected the crank sensor ?

Then, have you messed with the TPS switch ?
If you have, the car wont start.

You need to make sure that you can hear it click as soon as you press the throttle down just a little bit !
Thats very important.

Another thing thats equally as important, it might sound a bit silly actually, but are you sure you connected the fuel feed line and return lines correctly ?

[gralalfafan]

Then, have you messed with the TPS switch ?

No, there was no need to remove it from the throotle potenciometer.
I checked yesterday and it is clicking as soon as I press the throotle.

Another thing thats equally as important, it might sound a bit silly actually, but are you sure you connected the fuel feed line and return lines correctly ?

Yes it as OK.
But now I have both tubes disconected from the fuel presure regulator to check and it is dry.
The pump is not working.

[LoneWolf33]

Hi,

The direct supply doesn't have external fuse (the switched supply don't have either).
You can check these by removing the Motronic unit's connector and measure the
voltage between:
- pin 18 (direct +12V supply) and chassis
- pin 35 (switched +12 V) and chassis, with ignition on

Resistance between:
- pin 16 and chassis
- pin 27 and chassis
(less than 3 Ohms is expected)

The fuel pump has an external fuse near the injection main relay and the fuel pump relay.
The injection main relay should engage as soon as the ignition is turned on.
There might be a problem around these relays as well.

If the horn relay doesn't click that may caused by the following:
- The positive supply interrupted between the fusebox positive input and the relay terminal marked "86"
(remove the relay and check the presence of +12V between the fusebox relay terminal "86" and ground/chassis)
- The earthing between the relay terminal "85" and the ground is defective
(with the relay removed, and horn switch activated check the resistance between the fusebox relay terminal
"85" and chassis)
- The relay became defective (replace the relay)

[Supercharged16v]

How long was the car sitting till you fixed the engine ?

[gralalfafan]

Originally Posted by Supercharged16v

How long was the car sitting till you fixed the engine ?

I think 3 years...

[Supercharged16v]

mate, your fuel pump might be stuck then !

Have someone cranking the car for you, and give it a few light knocks with a hammer to get it starting !

.... mind you, if it was jammed, it would most probably burn the fuse that's on the fuel pump's relay.

[johnboy]

+1 fuel pump! Had the same problem with mine! Put a new one on, I leave the car weeks now. Turn the key and it fires up after afew turns

[gralalfafan]

Originally Posted by Supercharged16v

mate, your fuel pump might be stuck then !

Have someone cranking the car for you, and give it a few light knocks with a hammer to get it starting !

.... mind you, if it was jammed, it would most probably burn the fuse that's on the fuel pump's relay.

No it is not.
I checked with another battery and it worked very well.
The problem is electronic.
The relays from the main injection and the one that controls the fuel pump dont work...

[johnboy]

Is it pumping fuel? Mine was spinning but not drawing fuel!

[Supercharged16v]

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...rt-4-a-39.html (Look what I bought today (part 4))

post number 972, 2nd picture, set of relays with a fuse on top.

Check that fuse.

Also in the next pictures you will find a twin plug with a pink and pink white cable attached.

Pink should give you 12v when cranking the car, pink white is the + of your fuel pump.
Make sure that plug is connected and that it's giving you 12v.

otherwise, there must be a ring of grounds (attached on those 2 number 10 nuts you mentioned) that is NOT connected, and you need to check again carefully to see if you missed any.

If I remember correctly, you SHOULD have 1 ring for grounding of the ECU, 1 for the negative of the battery, 1 for the lights, and another 1 for the rest of the harness, so look for 4 ground rings (some with 2 or 3 cables attached in them). 1 thick one and 3 thin ones.

[gralalfafan]

Originally Posted by johnboy

Is it pumping fuel? Mine was spinning but not drawing fuel!

If I connect another battery it will pump fuel, the problem is not the pump, but what controles it...

[gralalfafan]

post number 972, 2nd picture, set of relays with a fuse on top.

Check that fuse.

Yes I did check that. Its a 15 amps fuse and it is ok.

Also in the next pictures you will find a twin plug with a pink and pink white cable attached.

Is it near those 2 relays?

Pink should give you 12v when cranking the car, pink white is the + of your fuel pump.
Make sure that plug is connected and that it's giving you 12v.

Going to check that.

otherwise, there must be a ring of grounds (attached on those 2 number 10 nuts you mentioned) that is NOT connected, and you need to check again carefully to see if you missed any.

If I remember correctly, you SHOULD have 1 ring for grounding of the ECU, 1 for the negative of the battery, 1 for the lights, and another 1 for the rest of the harness, so look for 4 ground rings (some with 2 or 3 cables attached in them). 1 thick one and 3 thin ones.

There is 1 very thick wire that cames from the battery, then 2 thick wires that came from the ECU cable, them some thin wires connected to 2 ring connections, all attached to the two 10 nuts.

But I will check again to see if I missed any...

[Supercharged16v]

Yeap, it should be where your battery is placed.
It might even be bad contact inside that plug.

Remember to look for pink and pink/white

[gralalfafan]

I tried everything, but without any success.
Now I´m going to trie to replace the 2 replys, the one that controls the injection and the other of the fuel pump.
Can someone tel me if replay Bosch 0332014113 is equal to 0332014112, an if Sipea (?) 0433 is equal to 0440?

Thanks

[LoneWolf33]

The relay with 0332014112 Bosch number has diode inside which doesn't allow reverse current
trough the relay coil. This type of relay engages only when the positive control supply connected
to the terminal "86" and the negative to terminal "85".
The other one with 0332014113 number (for the fuel pump) is a normal relay, without polarity
dependence regarding the control supply.
IMHO the 0332014112 can be replaced with the 0332014113 one or any equivalent relay
with the same terminal layout, because both relays have the positive control supply connected
to the "86" terminal.

[gralalfafan]

On my car, the relay that has the 15A fuse connected has a Sipea 440 relay (I think it is the number, I´m not near the car), and the other relay is a Bosch 0332014112.

I have some 0332014113 and a Sipea 433 taken from a 75 (parts car). Can I replace the originals from the 33 with these from the 75?

Can you check what references do you have in your car?

Thanks

[gralalfafan]

I´ve just tried the 0332014112 that was in the car and it is not working!!!
Stupid relay...
I tested it with a 9V battery between 85 and 86 (and inverted polarity) and it does nothing
Tested a 0332014113 and it worked.
The fuel pump still doesn´t work, but now when I put ignition on the first position the 0332014113 clicks
Its a good start, sunday I will check the rest of the circuit.

[LoneWolf33]

Hi,

If you have more of the 0332014113 Bosch IMHO you can use instead of the 0332014112 for testing.
(I have tried to find information about the Sipea 0433 relay, but apart from the general purpose 12V
relay with 5 terminals there's nothing more...)

The fuel pump relay is triggered by the ECU. When the crankshaft is standing still, or the ECU is not
getting pulses from the crankshaft sensor, the fuel pump relay won't be energized (due safety purposes).

But if you're not getting sparks either I think the root cause will be something else.

[Supercharged16v]

mate, before you go about replacing relays, I would bypass the pink white cable, give my fuel pump an ACC 12V and ground, and try to start the engine.

If that doesnt work, its not just your fuel pump. Something is not connected

[gralalfafan]

Originally Posted by Supercharged16v

mate, before you go about replacing relays, I would bypass the pink white cable, give my fuel pump an ACC 12V and ground, and try to start the engine.

If that doesnt work, its not just your fuel pump. Something is not connected

I´m not going to replace relays just for testing.
But I´m going to test all circuit with a multi-tester, including replays.
I did not have time to continue what I started friday because I was out of twon, but today I will try to start the car because yesterday when I was back I turned the engine checking if I had any sign of it starting and emidiatily as it was turning yhe fuel pump was working and 5 to 10 seconds later I noticed I had a leak.
So the fuel pump is working now, I will buy some new parts to replace and solve the fuel leak and probabily late in the evening I will try to start it.
Maybe I will be lucky... and it will start...