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Old 26-12-09
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Help 164 gearbox LSD???

Hi all, just wondered if anyone knows if the 164 came with a LSD at all in the range as I have aquired a 24v 5 speed gearbox and wondered if it's worth changing the one I have 12v v6 cloverleaf in my Lancia monte-Carlo any thoughts? All the best for the new year to All Alfa owners!! And hope to be at the world record in my 159 ti!! Regards , Paul
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  #2 (Post Link)  
Old 26-12-09
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As far as I'm aware, the Cloverleaf spec cars had LSDs, but I'm not sure. I wouldn't mind one for my old 12 valve because one of the biggest problems with the right hand drive cars is that the driver sits on the same side as the engine - making it considerably heavier than the left hand side. On the left hand drive cars, the weight is almost perfectly distributed with a 75kg driver alone in the car, but on the RHD car, it's well over 100kg heavier on the right hand corner, so it's very willing to spin its left hand front wheel in anything other than perfect conditions!
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Old 27-12-09
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Hi Avocet, Cheers for the reply! Will also need to find out if the gearing is much different to give me a lower rev per mile in top. This may mean I'll have to mix the internals to suit. Cheers, Paul
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Old 27-12-09
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You can fit a torsen q2 in a gearbox for a v6
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Old 28-12-09
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Sorry to say, no LSD available in the range. I have a late 24v Super/QV box in my car I bought brand new from OK Parts and it is valid for both the QV and V6 Super, there is absolutely no difference between boxes. The 12v cars I believe had different ratios but no LSD.

The only 164 that did have a limited slip diff was the Q4 'Viscomatic' but no retro fit available unless you are very brave. The box in that car was a Getrag 'non maintenace' 6 speed box with no LSD either. The centre diff was a viscous coupled diff positioned in the centre and electrónically controlled via the Viscomatic ECU that used throttle angle, steering input data, ABS and ECU data to make necesary adjustments to the traction. A 250 kilo extra that makes the Q4 sluggish to the say the least.

But you can retro fit the Q2 diff into a 164 box although you will need to take make modifications to the cog/wheel that runs the speedo mechanism in order to have a working speedo. Quaife also make a direct fit diff for the 164 but I believe people who have installed one say that it is a bit 'lumpy' when manouvering. Might be OK for your Montecarlo although I would use the 24v box for sure as it has the stronger roller bearings and tends to be a much sturdier box on the whole.


Past glories: Sud 1.5ti, Alfetta GTV, GTV6, 33 1.5ti, 33 1.7ie, 164 3.0 V6, 164 3.0 V6, GTV 1.8TS, 156 1.6 TS.

Now: 159 2.4 JTDm QTronic, 164 V6 24v Zender Alfa Sport, Ford Mondeo 2.0 TDCi (Mothership).
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Old 28-12-09
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Hi, Thanks for that! I've been running the 3ltr V6 now for nearly 14 years (brought it in 1992 out of a 1991 car five or so to complete resto + conversion) and it's been fantastic 4 yers ago it was supercharged with an Aston Martin blower and Megasquirt ecu etc wich now make it alot of fun with a capital F! I was thinking about changing the gearbox so as to lower the revs in top as the charger can be a bit much on long journeys but didn't want to alter the "through" the gears pace that the car has. Regards, paul
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Old 29-12-09
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Sounds like a blast! Power to weight on the monte must be interesting... If you ever need to swap out the box, the 24v box should suit your application perfectly but as they say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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Old 29-12-09
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I know what you mean but, trouble is my hearing WILL be broke if I can't lower the revs in top!!! :0( it's around 4.5 seconds to 60 and sounds awsome!! V6 Alfa has to be the best v6 about ( and that's from the mouth of a true lancisti!!) cheers, Paul

Last edited by monstermonte; 29-12-09 at 22:11.
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Old 30-12-09
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Sounds like an awesome machine! How much power are you getting out of it? Did you have to lower the compresion ratio or make any other internal mods to the engine?
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Old 30-12-09
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Hi, It's about 285 as yet no compression changes as I'm running it aroud 6psi with two dump valves one for tickover and gear changes ( charger runs down quicker than engine which can cause the belt to slip) and the other is adjustable for boost levels (could go higher on psi) but it is a real crack, especially with BMW m3's as they expect a little old Lancia not to be as quick!! More fool them!! with the megasquirt it now runs an air temp, water temp, cranck sensor, lambda sensor and throttle position so it's quite a simple system but it VERY good and easy to work on. Love it! Had it Noe for 19 years and on the road for 13/14 years now( supercharged 4 years) Regards Paul
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Old 31-12-09
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Mmmmmm. Very nice! Where is the supercharger? Did you put it where the aircon pump used to be? I've toyed with the idea of a very low pressure supercharger in the past but I probably won't ever do it...

...too many kids now!
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Old 01-01-10
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Paul, you sound as V6 hooked as me (hence the junky part in my name ). Someone explained to me once that the best arrangement for a 6C engine was in line which is why BMW do not build V6 engines. But the Busso V6 is special in that it is configured in such a way that it is very much a 'false' in line 6. Giuseppe Busso was inspired when he designed the V6 and I think the longevity of the engine from the first 2.5 fitted in the Alfa 6 to the very last 3.2 fitted in the GT is a testament to his genius.
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Old 01-01-10
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The straight six is supposed to be the best "textbook" engine when it comes to having no out-of-balance secondary forces, in that it's the lowest number and configuration of cylinders that can do this, so they're very smooth. HOWEVER, they end up having long, spindly crankshafts and as a result, they can suffer from torsional vibrations along the length of the crank - which a V6, with its short, stumpy crankshaft, is virtually immune to. The straight sixes can also be a bit harder to package (leaving the Austin Princess aside!) unless you go for longitudinal engines and rear wheel drive. Finally, the striaght 6s are, of course, taller than their V counterparts, so you end up with a slightly higher bonnet line and centre of gravity.
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Old 02-01-10
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Anyone have some details on the speedo drive modifications v6junky mentioned? I'm in the hunt for limited slip in my 12v 164...
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Old 03-01-10
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I believe that you need to transfer the drive from the standard diff to the Q2 diff. I don't believe that it is a big issue.
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Old 04-01-10
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Saw a shot over on AlfaBB I think - ISTR that all that's needed is to trim some plastic off the drive lugs on the worm gear. Don't forget to fit the gear BEFORE the bearings though....

As far as ratios, I've swapped parts in my 164 'boxes to bring things to where I want them. Just need to change second gear shaft and the ring gear. I did find a 'gotcha' when mixing 12V/24V box parts - there was a roller bearing on one of the gears on the second shaft (1st gear I think) that was slightly longer on one than t'other and it jammed up, so I had to mix & match. I think my ultimate 'box would be a 6 speed from a 2.5 156, with a Q2. Autolusso here we come......

For blower noise, have you considered a bypass valve Paul? The blower on mine was almost silent and no drive problems. Used a 40mm bike TB and the vacuum capsule from a Ford Supercoupe. Improves off-boost economy (in case that matters!) and really helps with noise.

*Hijack warning*

Hi Paul. I've been talking with Darren about his SC project and your name came up - parked next to your car at Gaydon this year but didn't catch you for a chat

STILL haven't got my new SC motor on the road yet...irritating clutch problem at the moment - hope to get it sorted soon.

Cheers
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Old 04-01-10
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MM I love the look of that monte Carlo....any more pics please

I nearly bought one back in the eighties, but the gear change was such a challenge i didn't bite. Bought a Green Cloverleaf 'sud instead and the rest's history.

Need a better look at Monte though. Is it an 037 look-alike?

H.
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Old 04-01-10
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Hi mate,

you decided against the 24v conversion then? Are you seriously going to take your car to bits?? Don't do it mate - remember it's Le Mans this year and these things like this have a habit of taking longer than you think!! I WILL be back on the road before the Start of Term Bash - I HOPE!!
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Hi mate! If I do get 24v it won't go in b4 le-mans as I couldn't miss that!! Will be fantastic if you do get it otr in time 4 sotb look foward to that!! Cheerrs daz. Paul
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Hi chris, next time you'll have to give me a nudge if we're both at a show as your input would help me no end (and save my hearing!) would like to see how you have installed yours and compare look foward to it cheers for the post, Paul
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Hi Hami, will post some more pictures! no it's not an 037 lookalike as the bodywork is standard save for colour coding bumpers etc. Cheers ,Paul
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Old 05-01-10
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Fingers crossed Chris may join us at the SOTB if the timing's right and I'll be there in a Monte one way or another!! ;o)

Darren
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Old 05-01-10
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Originally Posted by monstermonte View Post
Hi chris, next time you'll have to give me a nudge if we're both at a show as your input would help me no end (and save my hearing!) would like to see how you have installed yours and compare look foward to it cheers for the post, Paul

...and there was me thinking I could pick your brains

Would love to have a good nose over your car though Paul - as Darren says, I hope to be able to make the SOTB, as long as you chaps don't mind a Strat copy that is.

I had a Monte about 20 years ago and still regret selling it to this day. Darren tells me my old car is currently undergoing a full resto - might see if I can get in touch with the owner for old times sake!

Mmm...V6 Monte....I just happen to have a genuine 200bhp 12V motor and spare gearbox in the garage...... MUST RESIST.......
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Would be fantastic if your there chris, with or without stratos ( with is better!) I'll see if I can bring monte ( afraid the boss has slot to say as she goes to le-mans but hates shorter journeys in England?? it's a girl thing I guess!) can't wait to compare!!! Paul
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At the risk of getting back on topic ....I forgot to mention, I have a spare 3.11 output shaft/ring gear set from a 12V box if that's any help. Also have a 2.94 set as well, but that's in a box at present, although I can't ever see me using it like that again so could easily be persuaded to liberate it. TBH, I may well get round to putting the 3.11 in the spare box when I get some time - the 2.94 was dreadful with 225/45/16 back wheels. Geared for about 170mph IIRC. Might work better with more torque & power but it was too tall for 210ftlb/200bhp.

The boss may find the car nicer when it's quieter?? A trip is one thing - it's always a bit of an event so one makes allowances, but day to day stuff can get tiring in a noisy car. ISTR I found even the original TC a bit noisy in my Monte. I added loads of extra soundproofing to the bulkhead and fuel tank. Helped a fair bit. A double-glazed back window would help too.


....and wandering off topic again.....

On the noise topic, I just went to a load of effort (and cash!) to make a quieter exhaust system for my Strat copy. Yet to try it on the road due to the clutch problem of course, but fingers crossed. It's got over 85% more silencer volume than the old system so it should be a decent improvement. It'll flow a lot better as well.

If you want to carry on the SC conversation offline Paul, feel free to PM me and we'll exchange e-mail addresses.
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