Climate Control Question 164 V6 Super

[keithhm]

Good Evening,

A long time ago I had my Heater Matrix replaced but my Mechanic ruined the A/C Filter Drier and hence Had no A/C.

Today I decided to take it for a full A/C Inspection and service. Replaced Valves, and Drier. New Gas the works. The A/C specialist told me that Alfa Romeo A/C aren't that Cold however should still be adequate.

I started my car and the Climate control was on Min and the A/C was pathetic but slowly got better. I was already cursing my head off but I descided to take a long Drive and go back Home. Once I started driving I set the temp to 17 and funnily enough the Climate control really began to cool. After about 5 mins the car was perfect. Any Idea why the time.

Oh here in Malta we curently have a temp of approx 38C due to humidity.

Ok so I got home and cleaned her up. After an hour I decided to start the car and test the Climate Control. The Engine Temp was just below 90C. I set it to Min and 17C and it was pathetic again, I could say even worse. I didn't know what to do or what was happening. I descided to give the engine a little revving, 3000RPM, and suddenly the Air started to become cold again.

Any Ideas why is this happening ??

Thanks & Regards

[rossolusso]

I may be wrong but isnt it just the air con condenser getting the air cooled down to that temperature, it cant do it instantly. Weather conditions will play a part too.

[keithhm]

Thing is it used to, say my dad has a Ford Fusion and as soon as you switch on the A/C the air begins to come out cold. It takes a while to cool the entire car but cold air comes out. In my Alfa the air wasn't cool, after I revved the engine it started to throw out cold air. I was thinking it could be the compressor not getting the pressure high enough at idle. But I don't know!

Thanks

[tifosi27]

Originally Posted by keithhm

Good Evening,

A long time ago I had my Heater Matrix replaced but my Mechanic ruined the A/C Filter Drier and hence Had no A/C.

Today I decided to take it for a full A/C Inspection and service. Replaced Valves, and Drier. New Gas the works. The A/C specialist told me that Alfa Romeo A/C aren't that Cold however should still be adequate.

I have 2 164 24Vs with climate control and they are VERY cold. What Rossolusso says is also correct. The condenser cannot instantly cool the air from 38 to 17 and it does take a little time. You will get ambient air at first since everything is initially at ambient.

I'm not being funny but can I suggest that since you've spent your hard earned cash and had a "specialist" supposedly fix your system that you take it back, complain it's still not working properly and have him fix it? Shame to waste your money and I'm sure the specialists work is guaranteed/warranted.

good luck

[m.tuohy]

Originally Posted by keithhm

Good Evening,

A long time ago I had my Heater Matrix replaced but my Mechanic ruined the A/C Filter Drier and hence Had no A/C.

Today I decided to take it for a full A/C Inspection and service. Replaced Valves, and Drier. New Gas the works. The A/C specialist told me that Alfa Romeo A/C aren't that Cold however should still be adequate.

I started my car and the Climate control was on Min and the A/C was pathetic but slowly got better. I was already cursing my head off but I descided to take a long Drive and go back Home. Once I started driving I set the temp to 17 and funnily enough the Climate control really began to cool. After about 5 mins the car was perfect. Any Idea why the time.

Oh here in Malta we curently have a temp of approx 38C due to humidity.

Ok so I got home and cleaned her up. After an hour I decided to start the car and test the Climate Control. The Engine Temp was just below 90C. I set it to Min and 17C and it was pathetic again, I could say even worse. I didn't know what to do or what was happening. I descided to give the engine a little revving, 3000RPM, and suddenly the Air started to become cold again.

Any Ideas why is this happening ??

Thanks & Regards

Keithhm

I find if you hit the recir button at 17c in the auto position, you will only cool the air within the car at first, without trying to bring in the warm air from the outside to cool at the same time, the car will cool much quicker and then you can change it to bringing in the air from the outside once it starts to cool down inside the car, try this and see what you think.

Mick

[keithhm]

Thanks for the Advice tifosi27 but I did tell him that it was doing so and he told me that I was feeling it very cold before cos I had the Heater Matrix piping bridged hence never any hot air. The Heater Matrix get hotter as the engine rises like any other car however the Heat it produces although insulated and having the Hot/Cold Door Shut it still manages to create some heat (Or that's what I think is happening). Well In Malta we have Hot Summers and in Britain the air is never too hot to bare (last year 45C with 99% Humidity). So I think m.tuohy is right however I still cant understand why revving the engine affected the temperature of the air flow (Cooler). Something with the Compressor ? This Specialist I took it to was reccomended to me by an Alfa Romeo Specialist & The Local Dealer so I think he knows what he's doing (I hope at least). If its performance degrades I'll take it back I have a Year Warranty !

Thanks & Regards

[Avocet]

The 164 has all the components of its air conditioning system in the engine bay and suffers from "heat soak" quite badly compared to more modern designs. When you turn the engine off after running for a while, the heat in the engine bay warms up the entire heater box - and with it, the evaporator, receiver / filter, flaps etc. That black plastic cover that bridges the gap between the fale bulkhead and the base of the windscreen doesn't help either. I believe some American 164 owners have insulated it and stuck some reflective material over it to try and minimise the heat soak. Obviously, when you start up, the evaporator should start to cool down within seconds of the engine starting to run, but it will have to drag down the temperature of all the bits and pieces that the air flows through before you get decent cool air out of the vents. The fact that you've been used to having the heater matrix bridged out will, as you suggest, also make a small difference for the worse.

Revving the engine is also useful - the faster the pump turns, the more work it can do - in fact some cas actually increase their idle speed slightly when the aircon is switched on for precisely this reason.

If your 164 is like mine, it will automatically go to "recirculation mode" when there is a big difference between the outside air temperature and the temperature you have demanded - in order to cool the car quicker.

Try opening the bonnet without the engine running but after it has been running for a while and then been left standing so that everything under the bonnet is hot. Locate the aircon hoses that runs up the right hand (left hand as you look at it from the front of the car) inner wing to the evaporator. Ask someone to start the engine and set the climate control to its coldest setting. Feel the pipes and see how long it takes for one of them to start getting cold. (NOTE! My 164 is an old 12 valve on the old "R12" refrigerant and it's a right hand drive, so I'm only guessing that your pipes will be in the same place)!

Anyway, with the engine idling, I'd expect one of the hoses to start feeling cold to the touch after only 10-20 seconds. If your asistant revs the engine, it ought to happen a bit faster. With the sort of humidity you mention, I guess you ought to start seeing condensation forming on the aluminium bits after about a minute.

[v6junky]

I live in a similar hot climate (30 to +40ºc june to sept) with the same car. The problem under idle or traffic is to do with air flow through the condensor; once up to speed things improve along with the fact that the compressor works at its optimum efficiency when the engine is around 3000rpm. Every a/c system works via a heat exchanger/condensor which will have an ability to drop the temperature by an average of 20º to 25º in the best of cases. If the exterior temp is 40, then the best you can hope for is around 20º to 15º in the car which is a comfy temperature but the problem with the 164 is the old technology condensor and the fact that it will only drop the temperature by around 12º to 15º. Now,the more fins you have on a condensor, the better it will work and modern cars obviously have modern condensors. You can swap out dryer, expansion valve, compressor, etc., but the real issue is the condensor which is old technology. The solution which I am looking at on mine is swapping out the condensor for a modern unit which you can buy ready made for the 164 from Alfissimo.com which is getting very good reviews.

Everything else you can do, such as insulating against heat soak as mentioned, is a bonus but with a modern condensor, the difference should be really noticeable.

[tifosi27]

Originally Posted by v6junky

The solution which I am looking at on mine is swapping out the condensor for a modern unit which you can buy ready made for the 164 from Alfissimo.com which is getting very good reviews.

Everything else you can do, such as insulating against heat soak as mentioned, is a bonus but with a modern condensor, the difference should be really noticeable.

I like the sound of this! I'll have a try at one of those too. Not so hot in Scotland however touring South of France and into Southern Italy in the Summer I reckon this is a good plan!

cheers
T

[Avocet]

Originally Posted by v6junky

I live in a similar hot climate (30 to +40ºc june to sept) with the same car. The problem under idle or traffic is to do with air flow through the condensor; once up to speed things improve along with the fact that the compressor works at its optimum efficiency when the engine is around 3000rpm. Every a/c system works via a heat exchanger/condensor which will have an ability to drop the temperature by an average of 20º to 25º in the best of cases. If the exterior temp is 40, then the best you can hope for is around 20º to 15º in the car which is a comfy temperature but the problem with the 164 is the old technology condensor and the fact that it will only drop the temperature by around 12º to 15º. Now,the more fins you have on a condensor, the better it will work and modern cars obviously have modern condensors. You can swap out dryer, expansion valve, compressor, etc., but the real issue is the condensor which is old technology. The solution which I am looking at on mine is swapping out the condensor for a modern unit which you can buy ready made for the 164 from Alfissimo.com which is getting very good reviews.

Everything else you can do, such as insulating against heat soak as mentioned, is a bonus but with a modern condensor, the difference should be really noticeable.

Interesting. I hadn't thought to mention it but just before R12 became unavailable, I replaced my condenser with one of a more modern design - I think it's a "parallel flow" one, very much like the one in the link you posted. Unfortunately, the aircon didn't work before I fitted it so I had nothing to compare it with!

[v6junky]

Originally Posted by tifosi27

I like the sound of this! I'll have a try at one of those too. Not so hot in Scotland however touring South of France and into Southern Italy in the Summer I reckon this is a good plan!

cheers

T

If you get in touch with Jason at Alfissimo, mention that you know me (Jason) and ask for a discount!

Originally Posted by Avocet

Interesting. I hadn't thought to mention it but just before R12 became unavailable, I replaced my condenser with one of a more modern design - I think it's a "parallel flow" one, very much like the one in the link you posted. Unfortunately, the aircon didn't work before I fitted it so I had nothing to compare it with!

But it works well I gather? The a/c is the last thing I will have a go at on the 164 but when I do I will try to get a quote from a local specialist (loads to choose from in this part of the world and labour is cheap) to see if I can improve pricewise on Alfissimo's one. I imagine that any modern parallel flow condensor will work just as well.

[Avocet]

Mine came from this place:

Air Parts Europe Ltd Vehicle Air Conditioning Parts

and cost £116 with VAT and delivery - but that was some years ago now!

It's 580mm wide, 360mm high and 16mm thick. The ends were in the right places and of the right type to go straight on to my hoses. It needed a bit of a mounting braket making up (a very simple one) and that's about it. It's about the same width as the original 164 item but not as tall.

As for whether it works well enough, I'm not sure to be honest. I get cool air out of it when I turn on the aircon but I live (almost!) in Scotland so it's not like it has a great deal of work to do! Also, as mentioned earlier, I don't know how good an R12 164 system is supposed to be anyway! It's probably lost some of it's gas by now, I guess. Certainly when the car is stationary and the cooling fan cuts in because the condenser pressure is high, it doesn't stay running for very long - less than 10 seconds typically. It never comes on if the car is moving at more than (say) 25MPH but I've never run it in ambient conditions higher than 30 degrees!

[keithhm]

Thanks for the info & tips. I got the Car started yesterday and turned on the A/C and left it running with me fiddling on the car. When i went in, the car was fresh and really cool, I guess its the Heat "Soak" and the design of the condenser. But I'm happy its keeping me cool again.

Thanks a million

[tifosi27]

NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! I took mine to get regassed today so it's ready for the trip through Southern Europe and it wouldn't pressurise!

Here we go again.....

[badgers_nadgers]

My air con rad busted on the weekend, so looks like I'm going to need a new one too!

[v6junky]

Make the most of the situation and get a modern one installed.

[ALFAPAT]

get mine regassed this week after rebuild of engine , as it was all working before I am hoping it will be fine.
I find that real coolness is only achieved when you go for a run, it also depends how much your fan resistor is working?

[KiwiBob]

An aircon does not just make cold air when you turn it on. The cold air is air that has had the heat taken out of it. To do this the aircon must first take the heat out of the air con unit itself by transferring the heat to the gas and then shift the gas to the front of the car so that the heat in the gas can be transferred to the air travelling through the air con and radiator cores. If the aircon unit is in the engine bay it will be at the temperature of the engine bay - maybe around 80 degrees.
Once it has cooled itself it then begins to cool the air passing through the unit. Once it has done this you will start getting cool air in the car. All this will take a bit of time. If the compressor is running faster (ie the engine is running at revs) it will happen more quickly but, even then, it cannot happen immediately. If you do get cold air straight away it will be because the air con was already working.
When you are considering recharging the gas to get better cooling, keep in mind that too much gas can also be a problem. Last summer my 166 air con would work OK until the heat of the day then stop working. Turned out there was too much gas in the system causing too high a gas pressure and the pressure sensors shut the system off before it blew apart. Took out about a quarter of the gas and hey presto aircon worked real good.

[badgers_nadgers]

Originally Posted by v6junky

Make the most of the situation and get a modern one installed.

That's my intention. I've got a local specialist who's very good, but not necessarily the cheapest. They'd happily fit any parts I'd buy, but I'd want to make sure I was buying the right bits!

[v6junky]

I really need to get my 164 working as well as the GTV. Temps are getting quite high now and one thing I really love about my GTV is the fact that with the car sitting in the midday sun (around 38ºc at the mo), I can switch on the a/c and just leave it idling for a couple of minutes and it cools down enough to get in and be moderately comfortable. A couple of miles down the road and everything is nice and cool. The reason is simple in the GTV's case; modern a/c components and a much more reduced volume of air to cool down. The 164 can sit out the rest of the summer as far as I'm concerned but I really hope the new condensor will get the 164 working as close to the GTV as possible.