1996 Alfa 164 Super 24V - A/C Gas Type ?!

Good Evening,

Here in Malta the weather is getting warmer (as usual) so I turned on the A/C (climate control), but the cold air coming out was little, you had to place your hand with the vent to feel it.

Now I've just had my heater core replaced, the A/C system vacuumed and re-oiled the compressor, however the A/C won't cool that much just a little bit.

I'm not sure if the Compressor is kicking in but I guess since a little cold air is coming out of the vents then probably it is. Plus you hear something when you press auto a click sound.

Now since I had the system cleaned and vacuumed due to the heater replacement, i don't know what type of Gas they used on it. I've read somewhere that the 164 is not supposed to use FREON 12. Since I don't have the manual and Car Disk has the american version, any of you guys knows what type of Gas it uses. Is it by anychance R13a or rather the new type of gasses like modern cars? I'm going to have it checked out by an A/C Specialist but he need to check the type as FREON 12 is no longer Available!

Any ideas on what the Super's Gas is? Any Idea how after a thourough A/C Service the A/C never got to cool as much ?

Your help is much appreciated.

Regards !

Hi keithhm!
I´m pretty sure the system uses R134, most cars later than 1990 do. And most cars that originally used R12 can be filled with R134 without any problems. In some cases the pressure drop valve has to be replaced with a newer one, otherwise you may not get full cooling power. I doubt that is the problem with your car though, I would bet the workshop messed something up while replacing the heater matrix, maybe they didn´t manage to mount the flap motor correctly, forgot to connect it or the heater flap is sticking etc. You could easily check the A/C by starting the car from cold, setting the fan to maximum and temp at low. If it´s warm outside, the radiator cooling fan should kick in within half a minute or so. The condenser will get quite warm if everything is working properly.

That leaves the temperature mixing device, which could be defect or messed up by the workshop. My two cents worth....
Hope you get it sorted!

I agree it ought to be R134a. look under the bonnet at all the various plates or stickers, it might say on one of them. Also pull off the black plastic trim that covers the wiper linkage at the rear edge of the engine bay. it should expose the top of the heater box with the evaporator in it and various pipes - possibly even a receiver / dryer, a cylindrical thing, which is likely to be maked with the correct refrigerant.

I am perturbed (and interested!) at the suggestion that R134a can be put in an old R12 (Freeon) system. From what I understood, this was a definite "no-no" for a whole load of reasons (not least that it attacks steel - hence all the non-rubber pipes on an R134a system are aluminium)! I've also heard that the lubricating oil that goes with it attacks the seals in an R12 system!

Good Morning,

Thanks for the Info. I did check the Flap and its working ok, Opening and Closing accoring to LO or HI. I also noted that the Radiator Fan Kicks in when hot outside so that's ok too. I think the mechanic who did the job filled it with a different gas or something. The compressor is kicking in as far as I can tell but the air is just a little cooler than outside. Usually the A/C used to freeze you up but now ... nothing.

I must admit, before I had the heater matrix changed, the coolant never reached the heater so the Airbox was always cool, but now the Heater Matrix is always warm and so the Air coming in gets a little warmer.

The piping on the 164 is alluminium and when it was serviced to replace the heater matrix it got oiled too. Although I have an 'eye', or some viewing thing made of what looks as glass, underneath the plastic trim. It looks like a spyhole. Although I cant see anything through it, no buble or colour just the bollom of the tube (silver). What should this have? or what is it used for ?

The A/C Specialist told me that if the 164 uses Freon 12 I have to have it converted to a newer gas which would cost me a pretty penny. Although by the looks of things it seems that it most likely uses R134a.

Any further Ideas what could have happened ? The A/C never cooled as much as after I serviced it.

Facelift onwards (93+) had R134A. The A/C specialist shouldbe able to spot what gas is in it as a Super will have r134a-style schrader valves.

Thanks for the Info dex & all of you. Was worried that it was FREON 12 !

The sight glass that you refer to on the receiver / dryer unit is a throwback from the days of R12. It was a sign of a healthy system to see the odd bubble in there but R134a behaves differently - no bubbles. I guess it was just cheaper to use the same cannister than it was to re-tool. It's quite common, lots of early 134a cars (especially those whose systems were originally designed for R12) still have them. My wife's 1999 156 still has one!

There is no chance its R12! - thats a CFC

It will be HCFCR22 or more likley, HFCR134a

keithhm, when you checked the radiator fan, did it come on due to the coolant getting hot or because the condensor getting hot? If the engine was cool and the condensor was hot it´s a very reliable way of determining that the A/C is really ok. You should also be able to feel one of the pipes running to the drier canister become very cold. In that case, there cannot really be much wrong with the A/C itself. It has to be something else, probably after the cooler matrix. Checked the pollen filter? A long shot, but it´s known to effectively obstruct air flow if it´s not replaced regularly. My guess is the A/C is probably ok, and really cools the air. The cooled air then passes through the heater matrix, and if something is wrong so the heat cannot be completely turned off you would get the same problem. Again, easily checked when the engine is cold in the morning. If you can get cold air then, the A/C is ok.

Avocet, about filling an old R12 system with R134, I did this with my old 1989 Fiat Croma Turbo. It had leaked and the "cool guy" told me most of the conversion talk was simply crap. This was at the time most workshops had run out of R12. He said it was simply a neat way for workshops making some extra bucks "converting" systems that already would work perfectly. As far as I know he was right. I ran the Croma for several years with R134 without any problems. And the pipework was already aluminum. Don´t know about the oil he used when refilling, but he may have changed it to a R134 compatible type obviously. I didn´t notice any differences anyways, it cooled just as good as before.

as i mentioned in previous posts, on my 1990 model i'm using RS24 drop-in replacement for R12 and it really is ice cold

Ta, interesting! My old 164 is on R12 and, of course, when that fails, I'm unlikely to get fresh supplies! The car ain't worth the cost of a "proper" conversion to 134a, so just filling it up sounds very attractive! In the course of researching it, I've been told the following by various people:

1. The R134a molecule is smaller than the R12 molecule, so the rubber hoses have to be kept as short as possible and are often teflon lined too - to minimise refrigerant loss.

2. R134A attacks steel

3. R134a is a less efficient refrigerant so has to run at higher pressures than R12 (and the condenser needs to be a bit bigger).

4. The 134a lubricating oil tends to attack the seals in an R12 system.

All of which sound at least vaguely beleiveable! I guess the other problem (as has already been said) that I'm likely to encounter is that the charging ports on my car won't couple up to the charging hoses on a 134a machine because they're a different size.

If the AC dies before the rest of the car, I might give it a go and will let everyone know what happened. I think the Environment Agency are clamping down on AC regassing companies now though, so I might not find one willing to play ball!

Ta Dex, that sounds interesting too!

Originally Posted by keithhm

Good Evening,

Here in Malta the weather is getting warmer (as usual) so I turned on the A/C (climate control), but the cold air coming out was little, you had to place your hand with the vent to feel it.

Now I've just had my heater core replaced, the A/C system vacuumed and re-oiled the compressor, however the A/C won't cool that much just a little bit.

I'm not sure if the Compressor is kicking in but I guess since a little cold air is coming out of the vents then probably it is. Plus you hear something when you press auto a click sound.

Now since I had the system cleaned and vacuumed due to the heater replacement, i don't know what type of Gas they used on it. I've read somewhere that the 164 is not supposed to use FREON 12. Since I don't have the manual and Car Disk has the american version, any of you guys knows what type of Gas it uses. Is it by anychance R13a or rather the new type of gasses like modern cars? I'm going to have it checked out by an A/C Specialist but he need to check the type as FREON 12 is no longer Available!

Any ideas on what the Super's Gas is? Any Idea how after a thourough A/C Service the A/C never got to cool as much ?

Your help is much appreciated.

Regards !

You need R134a, and PAG 46 oil in the system.
Sounds like the system is not charged enough therefore not cooling. But the main reason that these cars have bad A/C systems is the condenser and work done on it. I use a parallel flow unit that I made up for these cars. I get well below 12.7˚C from the vents, sometimes lower.
You need to change the A/C filter, expansion valve. You may have a clogged filter if never changed or a stuck expansion valve if not cooling properly.

Make sure those items are replaced, system is evacuated for at least 1 hour, proper oil and amount in the system and compressor. Sanden compressor/system takes 177.44 cc of oil (PAG 46, synthetic).

Change o-rings if needed. Recharge system and you should have a very cold system.

Jason

Good Morning,

Thanks for pointing out the car's defficiency and your help.

Thing is that I replaced the Pollen Filter a week before the Heater Matrix got replaced, It was full of crud & dirt and the A/C really was cooling ice cold. However at that time I did not have the heater matrix connected, it was by-passed since originally the previous owner had a leak and simply removed the piping.

The fan did come in but I can assure you that the Car's Temp was not even at 90C so it could be that the AC Rad was warming up. I know that to refit/replace the heater you have to gas out the AC system but only after I did that (or rather the mechanic) he cleaned out the system, vaccumed it, oiled it and even replaced a couple of seals, but after giving it back to me, the car never cooled as before.

Now here in Malta we have high temperatures with high humidity, last year the temp rose to 48C and the A/C was like a charm, if set to LO it would freeze you up. Now I don't know what happened ! Could it be that when they took the condenser apart and gassed it they touched something else ? Its been like thins since the heater replacement. I'm not ready to fork out more money just yet!

You mentionned the AC Filter and valve, could they have gone? Could it be that the mechanic put the wrong gas ? Someone said to chech if the Compressor was kicking in, at the time I was sure but now i am a little bit weary ! How much would the Filter and valve cost?

I'm supposed to see a new A/C guy tomorrow, hope that the gas is the problem ! Any ideas would be much appreciated.

Cheers

Originally Posted by keithhm

Good Morning,

Thanks for pointing out the car's defficiency and your help.

Thing is that I replaced the Pollen Filter a week before the Heater Matrix got replaced, It was full of crud & dirt and the A/C really was cooling ice cold. However at that time I did not have the heater matrix connected, it was by-passed since originally the previous owner had a leak and simply removed the piping.

The fan did come in but I can assure you that the Car's Temp was not even at 90C so it could be that the AC Rad was warming up. I know that to refit/replace the heater you have to gas out the AC system but only after I did that (or rather the mechanic) he cleaned out the system, vaccumed it, oiled it and even replaced a couple of seals, but after giving it back to me, the car never cooled as before.

Now here in Malta we have high temperatures with high humidity, last year the temp rose to 48C and the A/C was like a charm, if set to LO it would freeze you up. Now I don't know what happened ! Could it be that when they took the condenser apart and gassed it they touched something else ? Its been like thins since the heater replacement. I'm not ready to fork out more money just yet!

You mentionned the AC Filter and valve, could they have gone? Could it be that the mechanic put the wrong gas ? Someone said to chech if the Compressor was kicking in, at the time I was sure but now i am a little bit weary ! How much would the Filter and valve cost?

I'm supposed to see a new A/C guy tomorrow, hope that the gas is the problem ! Any ideas would be much appreciated.

Cheers

I am sorry, I meant the A/C dryer filter. It is the round filter on top of the evap unit that has the trianary switch on it and sight glass.

The expansion valve and A/C dryer filter need to be replaced. call your mechanic and ask him what he put in?
If he did use the wrong gas you need to have him do it all over again and flush all the lines, replace all the o-rings, A/C dryer filter, Expansion valve to make the system right again.

Either that or you have a leak!

Also check the compressor 12V wire, could have come unplugged.

But if system not properly charged the compressor will not come on.


Jason

The compressor is kicking in, but I wasn't aware that the A/C Drier Filter needed to be changed as well as the Expansion Valve. How do I check if they are ok ? Would a normal A/C guy have the part I need as I checked the Agent and they have to be ordered. I don't think I have a leak as its been 2 months and the same type of cool air comes out, just a little to cool you. Well I hope not anyway !! Thanks for the Info.

Seems kind of weird I think. But since the fault appeared exactly after the A/C guy had re-charged the system he must have done something wrong. I would take it back and have him check operating pressure and leaks etc. Or take it to another A/C tech.

The receiver / dryer unit is full of a dessicant. It can't be "serviced" as such and must be replaced each time the system is open to atmosphere. Your AC man should have replaced it when he did the work unless it had been replaced farily recently. I would have thought that any unit which had been on the car more than about 5 years ought to be replaced. If he has used the wrong oil / refrigerant, it will definitely need to be replaced as it will be saturated with the oil now. NOTE that leaving them open to atmosphere for more than about 15 minutes renders them USELESS! So it's vital to keep the end plugs on until the very last minute.

Another thought would be to ask him to put some dye in the system. This is great for finding leaks. Just put some in, run the system and then go round all the joints and major components with an ultraviolet light.

Originally Posted by keithhm

The compressor is kicking in, but I wasn't aware that the A/C Drier Filter needed to be changed as well as the Expansion Valve. How do I check if they are ok ? Would a normal A/C guy have the part I need as I checked the Agent and they have to be ordered. I don't think I have a leak as its been 2 months and the same type of cool air comes out, just a little to cool you. Well I hope not anyway !! Thanks for the Info.

You always have to change the Dryer filter anytime the system is opened. The filter traps water, dirt, oil etc.. Must must be changed otherwise you contaminate the system. Expansion valve should be changed just as a precaution, as with all the work being done it just makes sense to. Especially if on there for a long period of time. This can mean a ok system or a super cool system.
Not sure if the A/C guy would have the part but should be easy to get.

When you have it replaced make sure they date the Dryer so that you know when it was done last.

I find most people that have bad a/c systems in the 164 have bad service. No replacement of A/C dryer, expansion valve, improper oil, oil amounts, etc. Just a half-assed job.
Jason

Good morning,

I just came back after a good run on the 164 and Noted the following;

With the engine cold the A/C was working fine,
When the temp reached 90C the A/C was still working fine,
Set to HI and changed temp and back to A/C, still working fine.

Went to the A/C guy but had a garage full of cars and said to come back later.

Went back in the car, and turned on the A/C .. the Air stopped being as cool and the temp was now at 70C. I rove it for about 20 Miles and did some errands, came back home. A/C was almost dead blowing only air just a little bit cool.

I checked the pipes, Ones were freezing, the other where hot. I checked the drier/filter and it was warm. Checked the spyglass on the filter and saw liquid moving at a very fast pace. I sat in the car and nothing, just a little bit of cool air.

The filter Drier is still stock as is the evaporator valve, however I am certain that when he recharded the system he left the filter open to the atmosphere overnight. Could that be the problem as I am running out of ideas, oh and I checked the gas pressure, its ok so ?????

Oh and anoher thing... I know which is the drier but which is the evaporator valve ?

It looks like 15 on that sketch. Best check with Jason though. The big cylindrical thing is the receiver / dryer. There is a rectangular thing with a long capillary tube - the anti-icing switch, and a small thin with wires on the back (the trinary switch). The expansion valve has no electrical bits on it at all - just refrigerant bits.