164 purchase advice

Hey all,

I'm thinking of investing in a 164, but not really knowing the model means I need some advice.

I've bought a few Lancias (2 Fulvias and a Beta) over the past few years and know a bit about the issues found with both. Are there any particular areas to look when buying one or does anyone have a copy of any articles written on them?

I'm obviously looking for an unmolested car with a full service history and a recent MOT, but any more info would be very gratefully received.

Thanks in advance,

In terms of entertainment it has to be a Cloverleaf. I had a later 24v 230 bhp car, it would accelerate like a startled rabbit in any gear, a real drivers car. The electrics fail and the paint fades, it goes through tyres and the suspension takes a bit of a battering as it's quite a heavy car. It was a bugger on petrol - as you'd expect, but sooooooo responsive. I like the smooth, balanced drive of my 166 TS but don't half miss the hooligan tendencies of the 164. Mine never gave me any problems, services were always very reasonable, but i think i was pretty lucky, as everyone seems to say they're expensive when they go wrong - but then isn't any car? Get a Cloverleaf, you'll love it!

take a look at this Alfa -romeo-164-3-0-v6-24v-auto-one-of-the-last (Alfa Romeo 164 3.0 V6 24v Auto One Of The Last (r-reg))

Which 164 you go for depends entirely on your priorities.


164 2 litre TS
The 2 litre TS is undeniably the best of the range at 150 BHP. Its quite fast, it handles well, you can get 32mpg, there are no cam belts and the engines are renowned for their longevity with very little attention (apart from oil & filter changes I used to adjust the cam chain tension once a year. It takes about ten minutes). They love corners, unlike the much heavier 3 litres , which need dragging round corners a bit, so they don't scrub their tyres so badly, and tyres are cheaper. They are MUCH cheaper to run than a 3 litre

3 Litres either 12 valve or 24valve

Both great drives. The 12 valve has better 'through the range' power, the 24Valve takes off like a hooligan above 4000 revs, so although faster, its less usable power. They are far more maintainance hungry than the 2 litres, chiefly because of the cam belt and the serpentine belt. They can get expensive to maintain, and you need to budget for 25mpg or less. On the plus side the V6 power delivery is very seductive

Issues in all cars are: clear coat peeling due to age. Although they have survived amazingly, you need to check for rust in/around the jacking points and on the rear trailing arm mounts: suspension bushes: front strut bearings (stiff steering or wander): Steering rack play and rack mounts deteriorating (these are an absolute bugger to get out so you need to check this out properly). cam belt changes at 55,000 (no matter what Alfa say) plus water pump and tensioner change (not 2 litre). A smell of petrol when you lift off=age related leaking from hoses on injection. These MUST be replaced or risk of engine fires. Check rear subframe for corrosion. check brake pipes where they pass over exhaust on rear near side, and also on any clips.

Parts availability is just beginning to suffer, but I reckon there are still plenty of most bits around.

I've owned two TS, and one 24valve V6. They are both brilliant, but more different from each other than you might think. Apart from acceleration and top speed, the TS is the more sporting drive, the V6 is more the high speed express.

Hope this helps

AlfaLincs

hi there osian yup thats my beauty 164 that brumi has brought to your attention remember its the r-reg unmolested everything works as it should and it will come with a full mot .you wont be dissappointed mate .looking to sell asap so ring me on 07522672890 cheers taz

osian this car has had all the work done on it so nowt for you to spend all major work sorted cheers taz

Well, I reckon that the 12V V6 is the way to go. It feels more gutsy low-down than the 24V, and in manual-transmission form, it goes like a rocket. Yes you lose a little top speed against the 24V, but top speed isn't that useful anyway.

I averaged an amazing 7L/100km (40mpg) in my 164 over 400km of open-road driving. On the same roads, my 166 managed only 10.2L/100km (27mpg). Given that the average speed was the same and both cars have 3L V6 engines, that shows the value of the old 12V when it comes to torque at low revs and, therefore, economy.

Maintenance, e.g. cam belt change, is easier on the 12V. There is, however, a large Bosch distributor and plug leads to check/replace.

What to look for... Oil leaks from the engine are going to be tricky/expensive to rectify, with the exception of the cam cover gasket. For example, mine has leaks from behind the cam pulleys and the rear cam pulley can't be removed easily with the engine in the car.

Front suspension control arm bushes - on the subframe - are prone to softening if oily, giving lots of negative camber - but the car still drives OK. Shock absorbers are very long-lived. Brakes are OK but not fantastic - expensive pads help. Check for steering rack leaks - not a nice job to remove the rack.

Clutches seem to get very heavy with age. If the pedal stays on the floor, that's the hydraulics, but if the pedal is hard to push, that could be the clutch itself.

Auto transmission, on the other hand, is a very good ZF unit with lock-up torque converter. It's normal for the 2-3 shift to feel quite sharp because that's also when the converter locks up. Means that when you lift off the throttle, engine revs don't drop - engine stays tied to the transmission - lovely feel.

Some early models prone to RUST on the panel that has the fuel filler, and apparently even the sills where they meet the floor.

Don't worry too much about panel fit - gaps behind rear doors, edges of bonnet almost into little-finger territory - the shells were made robotically and this is typical of the era. Do a YouTube search for "making the 164" - a fantastic video to watch, even if it is in Italian with a helpful Dutch voiceover.

Check for bent rear suspension rods and buckled rear crossmember. Can be fixed, obviously, but worth noting.

Everyone knows about the famous stepper motors that operate the air conditioning system. There are only two - one to turn the air distribution drum around, and one to close flaps over the heater matrix. The air intake/recirculate door is driven by a non-stepper motor.

To test, turn the fan up and switch between face-level and demist (the two end buttons) and you should feel the air move silently from one set of vents to the other. While the drum or temperature adjustiment is moving, there should be no clicking or cracking sounds. When it is at either end (face level or demist) it's normal to hear a regular pulsing or clicking sound - the stepper motors are pulsed at the end points. Adding a resistor to the motor circuit reduces this pulse strength - cheap to do.

Both my 164s have had perfectly-functioning stepper motors but usually some other part of the system fails as well - for my newer 164, it was the foam seals on the air distribution drum, and for my older (current) 164, the fan is a bit noisy. Both faults can be fixed for free - though, to fix the distribution drum, it was a total dashboard strip.

Later model interiors may look nicer to some eyes, but I find they feel a little ordinary, especially in the way the German LCD connections fail, just like in a BMW...

Most of the important air-con/heater matrix parts can be reached from the engine bay. The air conditioning is seemingly weak at the best of times, so don't be surprised if it has no effect even when the compressor cuts in correctly. If the compressor doesn't cut in, well, there's no refrigerant at all, so probably a major leak.

To replace steppers or distribution drum, the best way is to take the dashboard out as a complete unit by removing four nuts on the bulkhead. All the wiring unplugs at a few large connectors. Much better than this 'partial removal' malarkey made famous by the stepper motors. As these cars get older, people are cutting slots in the glovebox, etc. Just don't...

Apparently in the UK, the radiator may not last all that well. I guess you would look for telltale green/white deposits on the outside.

I find most electrics like locks, windows, all very reliable. Windows sometimes strip the teeth off plastic gears, which creates a buzzing sound. Electric mirrors usually stop because of the switch - clean the switch, and perfect function is restored.

Stereo system is still rather a lucky dip with these models (before the age of integrated stereo equipment), but the speakers, if factory-fitted, are good quality.

Seats are usually in perfect condition - they seem to be solid and hard-wearing, though velour can wear thin - but the padding/springing never seems to give trouble. If some of the electric adjustment doesn't seem to work, relax - a couple of taps on the motors with a hammer and large screwdriver will usually make them work, as will 'playing' with the switch. Seat heating, on the other hand, tends to shut off early.

Having owned several 164s, I bought a 166 recently - the disappointment is immense. I think you're doing the right thing by 'investing' in a 164 at this low point in their values.

-Alex

Originally Posted by alexGS

Well, I reckon that the 12V V6 is the way to go. It feels more gutsy low-down than the 24V, and in manual-transmission form, it goes like a rocket. Yes you lose a little top speed against the 24V, but top speed isn't that useful anyway.

I averaged an amazing 7L/100km (40mpg) in my 164 over 400km of open-road driving. On the same roads, my 166 managed only 10.2L/100km (27mpg). Given that the average speed was the same and both cars have 3L V6 engines, that shows the value of the old 12V when it comes to torque at low revs and, therefore, economy.

Maintenance, e.g. cam belt change, is easier on the 12V. There is, however, a large Bosch distributor and plug leads to check/replace.

What to look for... Oil leaks from the engine are going to be tricky/expensive to rectify, with the exception of the cam cover gasket. For example, mine has leaks from behind the cam pulleys and the rear cam pulley can't be removed easily with the engine in the car.

Front suspension control arm bushes - on the subframe - are prone to softening if oily, giving lots of negative camber - but the car still drives OK. Shock absorbers are very long-lived. Brakes are OK but not fantastic - expensive pads help. Check for steering rack leaks - not a nice job to remove the rack.

Clutches seem to get very heavy with age. If the pedal stays on the floor, that's the hydraulics, but if the pedal is hard to push, that could be the clutch itself.

Auto transmission, on the other hand, is a very good ZF unit with lock-up torque converter. It's normal for the 2-3 shift to feel quite sharp because that's also when the converter locks up. Means that when you lift off the throttle, engine revs don't drop - engine stays tied to the transmission - lovely feel.

Some early models prone to RUST on the panel that has the fuel filler, and apparently even the sills where they meet the floor.

Don't worry too much about panel fit - gaps behind rear doors, edges of bonnet almost into little-finger territory - the shells were made robotically and this is typical of the era. Do a YouTube search for "making the 164" - a fantastic video to watch, even if it is in Italian with a helpful Dutch voiceover.

Check for bent rear suspension rods and buckled rear crossmember. Can be fixed, obviously, but worth noting.

Everyone knows about the famous stepper motors that operate the air conditioning system. There are only two - one to turn the air distribution drum around, and one to close flaps over the heater matrix. The air intake/recirculate door is driven by a non-stepper motor.

To test, turn the fan up and switch between face-level and demist (the two end buttons) and you should feel the air move silently from one set of vents to the other. While the drum or temperature adjustiment is moving, there should be no clicking or cracking sounds. When it is at either end (face level or demist) it's normal to hear a regular pulsing or clicking sound - the stepper motors are pulsed at the end points. Adding a resistor to the motor circuit reduces this pulse strength - cheap to do.

Both my 164s have had perfectly-functioning stepper motors but usually some other part of the system fails as well - for my newer 164, it was the foam seals on the air distribution drum, and for my older (current) 164, the fan is a bit noisy. Both faults can be fixed for free - though, to fix the distribution drum, it was a total dashboard strip.

Later model interiors may look nicer to some eyes, but I find they feel a little ordinary, especially in the way the German LCD connections fail, just like in a BMW...

Most of the important air-con/heater matrix parts can be reached from the engine bay. The air conditioning is seemingly weak at the best of times, so don't be surprised if it has no effect even when the compressor cuts in correctly. If the compressor doesn't cut in, well, there's no refrigerant at all, so probably a major leak.

To replace steppers or distribution drum, the best way is to take the dashboard out as a complete unit by removing four nuts on the bulkhead. All the wiring unplugs at a few large connectors. Much better than this 'partial removal' malarkey made famous by the stepper motors. As these cars get older, people are cutting slots in the glovebox, etc. Just don't...

Apparently in the UK, the radiator may not last all that well. I guess you would look for telltale green/white deposits on the outside.

I find most electrics like locks, windows, all very reliable. Windows sometimes strip the teeth off plastic gears, which creates a buzzing sound. Electric mirrors usually stop because of the switch - clean the switch, and perfect function is restored.

Stereo system is still rather a lucky dip with these models (before the age of integrated stereo equipment), but the speakers, if factory-fitted, are good quality.

Seats are usually in perfect condition - they seem to be solid and hard-wearing, though velour can wear thin - but the padding/springing never seems to give trouble. If some of the electric adjustment doesn't seem to work, relax - a couple of taps on the motors with a hammer and large screwdriver will usually make them work, as will 'playing' with the switch. Seat heating, on the other hand, tends to shut off early.

Having owned several 164s, I bought a 166 recently - the disappointment is immense. I think you're doing the right thing by 'investing' in a 164 at this low point in their values.

-Alex

Alex, did you check out trademe another 166 Alfa romeo 166 3.0 V6 24V 2000 for sale - TradeMe.co.nz - New Zealand couldbe better then the one you got abeit 2 years older, I notice from the pics the central vents look a little different. no harm in checking it out? then just elist your current one

Originally Posted by rdavi

Alex, did you check out trademe another 166 Alfa romeo 166 3.0 V6 24V 2000 for sale - TradeMe.co.nz - New Zealand couldbe better then the one you got abeit 2 years older, I notice from the pics the central vents look a little different. no harm in checking it out? then just elist your current one

Good spotting! That one must be quite a recent listing, as I was looking only the other night. Yes, I quite like the idea of a drive to Auckland (in the 164) to check that one out. Bargain price too, though the bidding might end up rather higher than that.

-Alex

I cant see it going higher then 7-8k if that, most people bid higher onteh 147's best to check it out though, see if all the electrics work etc and condition of the engine, I like the colour would polish up well,log onto the oval website,will tell u on the bodywork whether any damage and where it is located.

Hey

Thanks for all your advice, it's definitely something I wouldn't have found out on my own!!

Tazmania, I would usually jump at your car but being a student means I have to work to a bit of a budget (at the same time I don't want a boring Peugeot or Ford Fiest either!!). I think the most sensible choice for me would be a 2.0TS (It would keep the insurance down as well!). I might be persuaded otherwise at the right price though....

Anyway thanks for all that, it will really help me find the right car.

You won't be disappointed with a good TS, and you won't find it slow to drive, but finding a well looked after one may take a bit of patience. There should be plenty, they sold about five TS models for every 3 litre one. I always enjoyed flinging the TS round the lanes far more than the V6. On the other hand, on 300 mile runs to Scotland the V6 just gobbled up the miles.

You should get a decent facelift one for well under £1000. Just make sure its been well maintained and has a recent MOT etc. I agree about the 166 though, its not half the car.

1991 ***** Romeo 164 twinspark Superb condition For Sale on Car And Classic UK

Try this one, only 73k miles, under £500

AlfaLincs

hi osian well ring me on 07522672890 and lets haggle i do love a good haggle if you dont ask you dont get cheers taz

Originally Posted by AlfaLincs

Y1991 ***** Romeo 164 twinspark Superb condition For Sale on Car And Classic UK
AlfaLincs

I think that has been up for a while, so may go for even less. My old 164 was J173TRX a green 2.0, great car. I would agree with all that has been said, just to add my opinion was that the 2.0 8v was a better drive than the 2.0 16v. The earlier car had no cat (cheaper for an old car) and was more responsive with better low down grunt, the 16v had a better top end, but of little use most of the time. The later car had a slightly better looking front end and lights, however the early car's grey bottom half with grooves in still looks great.

Either way its a good time to buy as prices are rock bottom, yet a well chosen car may even go in value.

HTH

Wel my 164 Q4 is coming on the market shortly but that might be a bit too £meaty! It's LHD of course.

My first Alfa was a 12 valve 3 litre manual 164. I loved it, the only problems I had were the radiator corroding and the thermostat needing changing. It was one of the most reliable cars I have owned..

The engine also sounds better than the later 24 valve unit IMO.

Just a couple of points to add. All 164s tend to trap mud / water between the outer seal on the rear doors and the rear whelarches. Make sure you open both back doors and have a good look at the part of the rear wheelarch that they close against. Also, the outer door seals at the front of the car, going down the "A" pillars are clipped on to a really crappy untreated bit of metal. It's not actually part of the "A" pillar and I'm pretty certain they weren't galvanised with the rest of the shell so they rust.

Early manual 3 litre 12 valve cars used to trash their gearbox input shaft bearings quite easily. As you pull away in 1st, you'll hear a faint knocking / rattling noise - not unlike bottom end engine rattle! It's fainter in 2nd and pretty much inaudible in 3rd.

I've never driven a 2 litre but the 12 valve 3 litres suffer from pretty awful torque-steer. It's probably the single worst thing about driving one hard on poor surfaces. I've found that Powerflex bushes on the back of the front wishbones help greatly. The 24 valvers were supposed to be better (probably because they don't have the torque)! I think the 12 valve cars sound nicer anyway and mine is surprisingly frugal! I got 37MPG out of it once being VERY careful, but it regularly returns 30 at 80 on the motorway and about 32 at legal speeds. I tend to average about 28-29 over a tankful. You need to try quite hard to get less than 25 over a full tank of driving.

Cam belt change is MUCH easier on the 12 valve than the 24. (and cheaper)! I've found the 12 valve engine to be pretty bullet proof (mine's coming up for a quarter of a million miles and has never been rebuilt).

For reasons that I've never been able to fathom, mine has melted a couple of rotor arms and one distributor cap since I've had it. I don't know if that's common!

Remember if you go for a 12 valve that the aircon refrigerant is probably the old "R12" stuff that you can't get hold of anymore. I'm told there are various aftermarket substitutes available but don't know if they're any good.

If I were looking to replace mine, i think I'd be after a 12 valve (pre-cat) cloverleaf.

Originally Posted by AlfaLincs

You won't be disappointed with a good TS, and you won't find it slow to drive, but finding a well looked after one may take a bit of patience. There should be plenty, they sold about five TS models for every 3 litre one.

That's very interesting and shows the importance of having advice from someone in the right country!

Over here in New Zealand, the TS was never sold at all - so all our 164s are the 3L V6 models.

'Facelift' (post-'93) 164s are rare here and command a high price - about the same as a 166. Obviously, that's not the case in the UK - but cars tend to age more in the UK than in NZ, so you're best to get the most recent that you can in general, but I think with Avocet's helpful advice, we have now built up a good checklist of what to look for!

-Alex

Originally Posted by AlfaLincs

1991 ***** Romeo 164 twinspark Superb condition For Sale on Car And Classic UK

Try this one, only 73k miles, under £500

AlfaLincs

I'd seen this one but wondered wether the lack of MOT or tax could be a bad thing. It's obviously extra money to spend but if it's just a case of taking it to the test centre and job done then that would be ideal...

What do you guys recon?