164 purchase advice

Originally Posted by osian

Is there any way of knowing whether the car has had a cambelt change in the past?

It doesn't have a cambelt to change, so no worries on that front.

Yup..NO CAMBELT...so no worries, the chains last to well over 200,000 miles as long as they are not run dry. Its a nice tough duplex chain as well.

Frankly if the owner is not prepared to stick it through an MOT to see what needs doing, then it is asking a lot for someone to buy 'blind'. Its more of a risk than I would take. I don't see his problem, it might well help sell the car if the faults are out in the open. Frankly the service history is less of an issue on a TS as long as someone has changed the oil and filter regularly, and the brakes are in reasonable nick.

I don't care if he says he runs it now and again. With no MOT its worthless, and literally useless. You might buy it and find it needs brake pipes doing, or a steering rack, either of which could be quite pricey to fix.

Just my thoughts

AlfaLincs

There is another side to this though:

Practically ANYTHING you buy for the few hundred quid that this car is likely to be worth is going to cost you money to keep running too! Seriously, the 164 is one of (if not THE) best built car Alfa ever did. Mine has well over 200,000 miles on it and has not had an easy life. If you intend to work on the car yourself, you have a good "support" network right here on this forum with plenty of people who are enthusiasts and know the cars well. It's often easier to get good technical advice on "niche" cars than the more common ones and the satisfaction of owning something different is worth a lot!

There are plenty of 164s in the scrapyards and if you're prepared to do the work, I'd have thought you could keep one on the road for not much money. Mine has cost me £3879.55 in parts and consumables over the last 7 years and 100,000 miles. That's a mixture of scrapyard parts, new genuine parts and new pattern parts. That's not bad for a car that was 10 years old when I bought it and had 150,000 miles on it back then! Even then, some of that expenditure wasn't actully essential - just improvements (like a leather interior from a scrap car, and aircon rebuild and some better wheels).

If you're going to look at the car, check the oil & water to see what the levels and cleanliness of both are like. Look at the tyres for uneven wear or sidewall damage. Little things like that will give you some indication of how well it has been looked after. Check to see if the engine is cold when you first start it -that way you'll know if he's just been out in it (suggesting it might have a coldstart problem or it's engine might not sound too good when started from cold). Start the engine and look for smoke in the rear view mirror. Listen for knocking in the frst few seconds after starting and watch how quickly the oil pressure gauge rises after the engine fires. Drive it about checking that the brakes pull evenly, try all the toys (electric seats, sunroof, heater controls etc) ESPECIALLY the heater controls! If it has climate control, be sure that both the temperarature and the direction can be accurately adjusted. Changing the stepper motors behind the dash can be one of the worst possible jobs on a 164! Check for rust (unless you really like welding!) and listen for suspension and steering knocks and clunks. Ask questions like "when did it last have a clutch". Make sure the temperature gauge works and that it doesn't overheat when left idling. Ideally, leave it idling while you chat to him and see if you can hear the cooling fan cutting it.

...and so on and so forth.

Mine didn't have any history when I bought it either - it was, after all a £300 car!

Good luck!

Thanks a lot guys, I think those answers make me feel a bit better. The chains are good news... I had read it somewhere but wasn't sure they had to be changed at all.

I definitely think forums like this one and the range of knowledge is the best thing about the internet. Otherwise it would have taken me forever to find all this out. I know how much help the forums were with the Lancia Beta I had before (before the rust took over!!).

Seeing as I'm not the most financially secure person in the world at the moment I think I will go and check the car over and see what it looks like... all being well (with the checks given here) I'll take a calculated risk.

I think I'll still push for a shared MOT and see what happens.

I'll let you all know what I find and thanks again for all your help (i'm amazed at the response!)

As much as I think the TS is a great car, I still think that if you go for it you will always be wishing you had a V6.

The TS is a great engine but the V6 is even better. Just be prepared to change the cambelt every 40k miles or so.

My V6 was bullet proof reliable, loads of torque and sounded great. I even managed to seriously ambarress a VR6 Golf on a twisty road. It also did 25mpg.

there shouldn't be much difference at this stage between a 2l and a beautiful v6, I'd wait for the proper one (I was waiting for about a year for my car to show up, and it was worth the wait.)

Originally Posted by symonh2000

As much as I think the TS is a great car, I still think that if you go for it you will always be wishing you had a V6.

I agree with you that the V6 is the ultimate 164, but there is an astronomical difference in running costs for not that much extra benefit.

My TS was much more chuckable and, in many ways, fun than the QV or Super. It also didn't cost much to run whereas both the V6s seem to eat parts for breakfast and never seem to have something not needing doing to them or some niggle with them. Seeing as the OP's a student, I really would recommend the TS.

Then upgrade to the V6 later, like I did.

I'd second badgers comments. The running costs of a TS are worlds cheaper than a V6. So if you are short on the readies its got to be the affordable TS, and yes, what you Cloverleaf guys don't realise is the TS is far more chuckable, and thus more FUN to drive. My TS would nearly get to 130 MPH (precat model)...just how fast do you need to go? (and don't you dare say 131 MPH )

I've run both engines, and if I were in the market it'd be for a TS as they are so much more user friendly to run and maintain.

I agree with much of what Avocet says, but I would want to make sure it does not need a steering rack to get through its MOT. My TS was getting 'noted' for some play in the steering (I couldn't feel it at all) and they kept muttering it might need a rack 'next year' for about three years. This is an expensive pain in the ass job to do, and you could do without having this landed on you as soon as you have bought it.

AlfaLincs

..in the circumstances the ts is the way to go i think. i've had 2 pre facelift tsparks and they really are a peach. i also have a facelift V6.. it's lovely too, but a very different car. and i can heel and toe the tsparks, but not the V6..!

as regards the play in the steering, you can take a shim out somewhere that might be enough to sort out a bit of play. one thing to watch is the airflow meter.. it can get sticky causing the car to stumble a bit on a steady cruise.. no big deal once you know what it is.

164's are a bit heavy on suspension bushes, and also rear shocks. this can make them feel a bit baggy, but when they're right they really do handly well for a bigish car. and you can get kyb shocks quite cheaply online at the moment.

i also had to change the radiators on both of mine at around the 100k mark.

but all in all, i drove them hard and they treated me very well.. that 8v tspark engine actually seems to get better with age, and both of mine really came alive after they passed 100k miles.

I think the 164s were the most satisfying cars I owned (TS & V6) but as with any car, if you buy a bad one, it will cost you a fortune. Be fussy and you will be rewarded with a great car

hi osian my 164 is still for sale have a look on piston heads need to sell it asap need the space looking for £1500 no less cheers taz ring me on 07522672890 or email me on tariqbpi@hotmail.com

Taz I would really love to give you a call and take your car off you but the price is just more than I can afford. After 5 years of university I'm in just about as much debt as I can handle!!!

hi osian what is your budget mate i too once experienced the life style of a university undergraduate and do understand regards taz

Hi Osian, I've go a 2.0 12v up for sale. It's on an 'M' plate '94. the miles are high at 177k, but she drives beautifully, doesn't smoke or rattle. She's got full leather interior, climate and Mot'd 'til November. I bought her as a stand in while my 155 was off the road. I did intend keeping both but have decided to let her go.

The kids want me to keep the 164 because of the the leather.

Oops, she's even got tax 'til end of May.....

And I'm sure you mean 8 valve rather than 12, not that it particularly matters. I would not be put off by the mileage if it's in good nick. Those Alloy TSpark engines will go on forever.

Again oops...you're right of course I did mean 8v.
The oil pressure does drop quite low once she's warmed up (0.5-1.0bar) but does pick up again when given some revs (2.5-3.5bar)...serious??

No, not serious at all, in fact a good sign. From cold you should see about 3 bar at idle, but as engine warms up this will drop at idle to maybe 1 to 1.5 bar when hot. This is normal. What IS important is that when you rev the hot engine, the needle responds, and yours does, so all seems to be OK.

Don't forget that the OP sender for the gauges on 164s (and 155s) get lazy over time (the diaphragm fails slowly), and ideally need replacing every three/four years, so unless yours has had a new sender recently, then the chances are that the gauge is under reading, and your oil pressure is healthier than you thought it was.

AlfaLincs P.S. I really love those engines, they are the greatest!!

The only thing I would add is that whilst all Alfa engines can be revved pretty hard, about the only way you can break an 8 valve Twin Spark is to over rev it. If you have any mechanical sympathy you will hear when its had enough, and it will not rev like a 16 Valve, but then it doesn't need to, and overall it is a much nicer engine with a super broad power band.

So just have a care for the old girl and she will not let you down.

AlfaLincs

chrisw... I've tried to send you an email but in case you haven't got it how much are you looking for your car? (bear in mind I'm a poor student that has a soft-spot for great Italian cars!! I'm not sure if they go together!)

I thought I'd have a look at the car advertised on the classic car website but found that when I asked the owner if he could arrange an MOT (even if I paid) he said that if the car was MOT'd he'd just keep it!

He also told me to just drive it home and get an MOT then (so just to be straight... drive it home without tax or MOT or even insurance!!)

I was too busy running away to give him an answer!!!

Yes, I thought there was something fishy about that bloke. sounds like a complete drongo. I mean, either he wants to sell or he doesn't, and if he's coming up with that kind of c*ap on the phone you do right to walk away pronto. It also suggests there might be something expensive needs doing if he hasn't got the £40 to get it MOT'd.

Either way he isn't playing straight.

AlfaLincs

I tried a 164 TS, and the V6, and then gave the the Thema 16v Turbo a 'try before you buy' on the Cambridgeshire by- roads, and then the motorway.

Without a doubt in my mind anyway, one of the best power plants ever produced .: Performed with minimal attention, expense, for about fourteen years, a really satisfying machine to own, which was well within my budget. Never had any major problems in spite of it being driven hard. Tough as old boots, almost unburstable.: Loved it.