3,2 jts engine remove/rebuild - Alfa Romeo Forum
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(Post Link) post #1 of 210 Old 14-01-16 Thread Starter
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3,2 jts engine remove/rebuild

hi all

Is there any interest in a new thread about a 3,2 jts engine rebuild?

got a brera with a stretched chain and some other minor and bigger issues. could not find any good info about the 3,2 rebuild so may be it might be for help for someone else in the future.

some picture will follow as well.

looking for now at a cadillacs 3,6l engine (those are pretty cheap here in sweden) and on the pictures it looks like the same pattern for the gearbox. it looks like a bitt different arangement for the pulleys but that should not be a problem since i can still use the original ones.
has anyone done that kind of swap before? i know there a a few threads on rebuilding the engine, but it might be pretty handy to just drop the caddy engine in alfa using the original gearbox

cheers
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Awesome idea, which 3.6 are you looking at? The 2012+ versions should have internal exhaust manifolds/integrated into the engine block, have the most power and economy and are about 20kg lighter than the original 3.2 used in the Alfa. The q4 should be tough enough, it handles supercharged 3.2's
Do you know if you will be able to reuse your ecu and wiring?
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(Post Link) post #3 of 210 Old 15-01-16 Thread Starter
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well that is still just an idea.
there are few 3,6 from cadddys here for sale one of them is a new one. between 2006-2010 but i have seen that the engines 2012- are more efficient but way more expensive. and my guess that those engines has another engine bottom. currently there is new 3,6 from 2006 for 1500. thats why I began to think about the complete change. think its the same power but as i understood its for a american market (low quality gazoline)

i am pretty sure i have to take the injection from the 3,6 as well. the original will not work and i do not have any possibilities to hack it either. should be possible to get it upp to 300hp wich is ok for a brera

the cost of all the parts for rebuilding the 3,2 will probably be higher then to buy a new caddy engine
but first I have to remove drive shafts

Last edited by radical_plus; 15-01-16 at 08:20.
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If you stick with the Alfa 3.2 I've got plenty of pictures of a strip-down and lots of GM part numbers for chains & sliders etc..
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(Post Link) post #5 of 210 Old 15-01-16 Thread Starter
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well it would be very nice if you could provide that kind of information. in case i will change the engine to 3,6 ill still be looking for parts to rebuild the 3,2.

actually just walked in home from the garage.. its freaking cold outside (and in the garage) -26 so i can be there only for a short while...
thanks for response so far
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-26 - I feel like a real lightweight staying away from the garage because it's heading for -3 here.
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well its hard to find motivitaion when its heading towards minus degrees... so you can imagine what its like when its -20

its during winter I have more spare time so either I go to garage or stay home watching tv.. easy choice!
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(Post Link) post #8 of 210 Old 18-01-16 Thread Starter
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when life gives alfa ro... I mean lemons. LEMONS!

short update for those who interested.
driveshafts off (just pull as hard as you probably can) a minor play in right one (long one) is noticeable. the inner one. i suppose its a common problem along with hundreds of other common problems with alfa sorry.. just a little bit ironic after removing driveshafts and some other parts like completle coroded/rusted bolts underneath the car. hand and fingers are bleeding.

anyways.. came to the point of removing exhaustpipes. the front one (or the left one according to the manual) underneath the engine is pretty straight forward. according to the very same manual i have to just remove the left one, but it looks like there is no chance to remove the engine with the right tube on.

could not find any info about that ( but i have not tried so hard either)

here is another random picture. only pipes left before i can lift the engine
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when life gives alfa ro... I mean lemons. LEMONS!

but it looks like there is no chance to remove the engine with the right tube on.

could not find any info about that ( but i have not tried so hard either)

here is another random picture. only pipes left before i can lift the engine
I have just pulled my 3.2 out of a Brera.

I would say that it is possible to get the engine out and leave the back pipe in place, but to be honest, it is easier to remove it first. (you have to on a 4WD to get at the prop shaft bolts).

If you need any other tips, let me know.
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Just had a quick look at your picture.

If you haven't already done it, that cross member will have to go, as will the steering pump, compressor and a 5h1t load of stuff from the left side of the car.

The biggest issue is trapped cables. they run down the back of the power steering pump and the rear manifold. With the engine half way out, but still connected by cables, you have to strip the alternator and rear manifold to get at the cables.

I hope you have an engine crane on wheels? This job is virtually impossible without one.

I have a pit in my garage....You are going to struggle with rear engine mounts and exhaust connections.

Enjoy.
 
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I found th easiest way to free the rear exhaust is to remove the water expansion tank and connect a butt load of extentions then you can easily reach and loosen the bolts from the top.

As for the caddy engine. The alfa altenator bracket does not fit on the caddy block. I had to make up brackets to be able to fit the alternator bracket.

The other problem is the heads. The gm heads differ slightly especially the intake port shape so the original alfa manifold wont fit.myou would probably have to make a custom manifold or build over your alfa heads on to the gm block.

That said 3.6 is well worth it. Its as if it breaks the barrier thats holding the brera back and makes it run like it was meant to. And i still need to do mapping on mine..... There will be quite a few extra hp waiting for me in the map.
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(Post Link) post #12 of 210 Old 22-01-16 Thread Starter
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thank you guys for the advice

have not been near the garage lately due to weather conditions.
but had plans to remove the engine during uncoming weekend.

according E-learn i do not have to remove anything but cables and pipes. i have disconnected pipes from the left side. so every part is actually free in the front.
cables are only connected to the alternator and lambda on mine, according to e-learn it can stay on. doesnt look like it is a lot of stuff on my left side, but the reason is probably that i have a lhd car.

yes i do have a 4wd and prop has been disconcted without any job done on the right side of the engine (mine is a lhd may be thats the reason)

the problem here is that the 100% of all bolts and nuts has coroded/rusted (salted roads). that means that i can not undo (easily) the nuts on the inner pipe, thats why im asking if its possible to pull it out without taking it off. there were no bolts left on the front pipe.. just some brown dots that looked like a small piles of poop

i do have an engine crane since its not the first time im removing the engine from a car. difference is that other cars were from the 60s and 70s and as you know alot has happend under last 40 years :P

did your engine has lifting eyes installed. mine did not..


according the 3,6. aha, thought that the heads are the same. good to know benzinabrera. does the 3,6 engine block fit on a q4 gearbox? intake is a minor problem actually im mostly worried for the exhaust manifold

thanks again for help
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You will have to use your own sump as well because the 3.6 sump looks different and the q4 stransfer box has a bolt that tightens to the original sump
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BenzinaBrera, did you make a thread of your 3.6 conversion? If not then please do! I really like the idea of a 3.6 conversion, as it's the same block right? Can't the gm intake manifold be used? A one inch spacer is a popular upgrade, the Alfa manifold has very long intake tracts, probably good for very low rpm power. I bet a gm composite intake with one inch spacer would let either engine make noticeably more power than the Alfa intake could, and the 3.6 ends up being a few kg lighter than the 3.2 was. Adapting the composite intake to the Alfa 3.2 would need customisation, a lot of work for a small gain.

Does the Alfa exhaust fit the gm heads? Or did you use GM one's, probably modified, or new custom made ones?
3.6 conversions could end up being a popular upgrade for 159's and Brera's, and then an upgrade kit complete with custom headers, ecu harness, etc could be available.

Last edited by alfafanboy; 24-01-16 at 10:56.
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I never really made a thread as i have a lack of pics to make a nice thread and also i wanted to consider making a thread when im completely done with the project. I just need to do remap now but unfortunately i had to take the engine out again to fix 2 oil leaks so that it can be put on the rolling road for tuning. Understandably so as they dont want to risk fire hazard.

Heres what i can tell you.

I used the alfa heads. They are virtually the same as the gm lumps. The only difference being the shape of the intake ports.

The intake manifold spacer is a very popular mod for the gm guys because they use a phenolic black plastic spacer that greatly reduces heat transfer from the heads to the manifold therefor yielding a lot more power when things get hot under the bonnet and trust me when i say that intake manifold gets HOT. I want to get my own ones made up for the alfa manifold intake shape ports but i dont know yet what the exact name of that plastic is they use. I would like to find out what it is and where i can find it

I bored out the original block but the engineering shop that did the work buggered it up so i ended up buying a new gm 3.6 block from gm. So i cant confirm whether or not the original block can simply be bored out or not.

The gm block has a difference where the alternator bracket fits and i had to make a modification to the bracket and make a little bracket of my own that tightens on another thread on the block to which the alfa bracket can be tigtened.

You have to use the alfa sump also and the alfa conrods dont work on the 3.6 pistons so youll have to buy new rods and pistons.

Standard alfa crank can be used also.

Here is the list of mods i made on my car engine performance related:

-3.6 bore
-Fully balanced internals and clutch assembly
-High duration camshafts
-Fully polished intake and valves
-Lightend flywheel
-Fully decatted exhausts (primary & secondary)
-Flowed heads
-K&N replacement element filter

Only need mapping now. Dont expect ludicrous power gains though. Especially where i live all NA cars are slow as turtles with our altitude. But that said it goes a hell of a lot better than stock 3.2

Last edited by BenzinaBrera; 24-01-16 at 19:32.
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You sure have done a lot of work, but it would still be good to see pictures when you remove your engine to fix the oil leaks! Does the Alfa sump have good baffles? Got a picture?

You can make your own teflon gasket How to Make A Teflon/Phenolic Intake Manifold and Throttle Body Gaskets/Spacers
I wouldn't want to use a thick gasket with the Alfa manifold since the tracts are so long, unless you had say 5mm or so machined off, then a 10mm gasket would be ok. Removing the front and rear engine bay rubber seals and bonnet insulation would also help manifold cooling.

Have you fitted a larger throttle body or modified the standard one?
DIY Modifying the stock Throttle body for more air flow
Optimizing the Mazda6 Throttle Body How-to
Cutting the top half of the shaft and tapering the input and output and port the manifold inlet to suit would help the Alfa manifold. You could make a matching tapered teflon gasket for the throttle as well.

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Thanks for the links! Ill be sure to check them out, been thinking about porting the throttlebody for a while now but im always scared im gonna break it haha. Perhaps some more reading up on the subject as per your link will give me more confidence.

Im aware of some phenolic materials like bakelite and teflon but was looking for whatever composite the black plastic is as they had some great success with that.

The alfa has 2 baffleplates in the sump so theres no problem there.

Tell me what you would like photos of ans i would gladly take them for you while i have the engine out and open.
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(Post Link) post #18 of 210 Old 25-01-16 Thread Starter
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thanks for that!

so shortly

-engine block
-con rods
-pistons

is what i need to make a conversion.
I thought it was easier to put the whole lump down the engine bay.

should be cheaper to just buy a parts. Ive seen your thread the other day. impressive work!
is it possible to use caddy's conrods or is there to big difference between heads? if i remember correctly you used some other brand for conrods?

one important question. where did you find cam shafts? only ones i can find is colombo bariani for a price of an annual salary.

what about mapping. did you use the original alfa or changed to caddy's?

thank you for your time. all information is much appriciated!
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You need.

-Block
-Rods
-Pistons
-Piston Rings
-Headgaskets

I dont know if your caddilac engine is the ly7 (normal fuel injection) or LLT (Direct injection). if its LLT then yes the rods and pistons will work. if its LY7 then you need new pistons and rods as they are not the same. i used OEM rods and pistons from Chevrolet Camaro 3.6 LLT. Bought almost all my parts except for the block from newgmparts.com speak to mike king, great guy and will get you everything you need.

The camshafts i had modified to the spec of Mace engineerings camshafts. the mace cams are a bit more aggro than the C&B cams. luckily engineering and performance shops are plenty here and well priced. got my shafts done at Vanderlinde developments. they did a stunning job.

For mapping im using my stock Alfa ECU plus a well known piggyback system called UniChip.
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thanks again for the info.

does really 3,2 heads fit on a 3,6 block without modifictaion? as i remember it it is a different bore size?
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Yes the alfa heads fit, the pistons dont rise above the block therefor it does not make contact with the head
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aha thats why you wrote about new headgaskets. i suppose you ment headgaskets for 3,6l engine?
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Thats correct yes you still need to use the 94mm headgaskets from the 3.6 to make it work
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How about using a complete LLT engine? The Alfa exhausts would fit right? Then a lightweight and heat resistant composite LFX manifold can be fitted with an oem GM adapter that was used on some LLT based models. This guy did it but only with a 12mm spacer, which is still good for heat reduction and the extra tract length really helps low rpm flow on the GM engine LFX manifold on an LLT
The Alfa throttle would probably fit on the GM composite plenum, could the Alfa ecu run the direct injection LLT GM vvt engine?
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no i think you have to use alfa heads anyway. i think that the intake is completely different compare to caddys. but the company mentioned above selling spacers for Alfa 3,2. so it should be possible to just change the block and internals and put the original manifold on and use the spacer (or two)

as i understood it from benzinabrera it is not possible to use complete caddy engine due to different engine mounts on each engines compare to original alfa one.

mine is Q4 may be its different on fwd brera
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