Swirl flaps How To and MAF clean How To anywhere? 159 1.9 - Page 8 - Alfa Romeo Forum
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(Post Link) post #176 of 410 Old 28-01-16 Thread Starter
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What size spanner do I need to undo the glow plugs? I don't think I could get a snug fit with anything in my artillery.
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Still fascinating reading boys.

I would offer advice but you've got Dan offering his vast knowledge and experience, leave you to it.

Good luck
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9mm. Ring spanner or deep socket recommended (I avoid open-ended head mashers unless there is no choice).

AR certainly do like to use every size and type of fastener that has ever been made. Most mfrs seem to try and confine themselves to just a few popular standard sizes, AR 'ooh, we haven't used any 15mm yet, so let's use those...'. One of my favourites is the 2 vertical hex head bolts on the head-steady bracket, that are easy to access, and a horizontal Ribe headed bolt so close to the inner wing that there's no room for any known Ribe socket+ratchet - and I've never yet seen a Ribe ring spanner. So I had to improvise one, using a Ribe bit in a ring spanner. Very droll.
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My background: I was a kid who pulled things apart to see how they worked, or why they didn't. Model aeroplane diesels -> amateur lifelong petrol-head, who had a succession of cheap old motorcycles and cars that needed endless repairing and fettling. There was never any option not to DIY and it just went on from there. Many years later I actually dislike riding or driving anything I don't know from having worked on it. It's probably genetic or contagious. I have 2 sons who work in the motor trade, one former tech who's specialised now in automotive electronics development, and another who's a paint sprayer but now exploring New Zealand, which is very selfish of him since there's a small ding in the front wing.
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Your right. I can probably count how many spanners and sockets I have not used yet on one hand. Haha. But, still early days.

The DIY thing must be genetic . I can't let something go without giving it a shot myself. Expenditure is obviously a reason but honestly think if I won the lotto, I'd still be DIYing. Maybe

Turbos off...pictures below of it untouched. Impellers don't seem to have suffered and damage from anything passing through. The oily mess can been seen. Going to do a service as the awesome video halftone posted earlier suggests. Turbo seemed to be working fine before engine dismantle and the 2 missing flaps I can't find (only with shrapnel evidence) where gone long ago. So I quietly confident I'll not going to find any problem here.
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Enjoying the read you chaps. All credit to you both. Best of luck - I'll keep following and fingers crossed for a successful outcome for you both.
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The oiliness on the compressor side (silver) seems normal-ish. There is always some oil mist in the compressed air being fed to the engine, and over 100k some will get everywhere, past hose clamps etc. and onto the hoses and general area.

The oiliness on the turbine side (the rusty cast iron side) and manifold is not right. For one thing that side gets incredibly hot (near red heat at times) in use and that oil would quickly burn off, with a lot of smoke and smell. Which you'd know about if the car had run like that. That means there's a big leak and the oil is only very recent. Unless you know you spilled a ton of oil down the front of the engine (and you will have spilled some) whilst dismantling the cambox/head from the car, I think you need to look into this.

Are there signs of oil leaking from the joint between cam box and cylinder head and onto the exhaust manifold then down onto the turbo? I mean oil doesn't flow far uphill, so examining the oil on the manifold might give some idea where it's coming from. Was the head itself very oily in the manifold area?
Were the oil feed or return connections loose? Any signs of damage to either pipe?
How much dirt is stuck in the oil? The more dirt, the longer the leak has been in progress

The turbo itself looks clean and dry on the inside (aside from normal soot on the turbine side). This is good. But not shown is the inside of the output pipe from the compressor (the fat top pipe in pic.2). Some oiliness = normal. ****ing oil = failing bearing. Is there any trace at all of slop/movement/roughness in the bearing? Witness marks from contact between the impellers and casing?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halftone View Post
The oiliness on the compressor side (silver) seems normal-ish. There is always some oil mist in the compressed air being fed to the engine, and over 100k some will get everywhere, past hose clamps etc. and onto the hoses and general area.

The oiliness on the turbine side (the rusty cast iron side) and manifold is not right. For one thing that side gets incredibly hot (near red heat at times) in use and that oil would quickly burn off, with a lot of smoke and smell. Which you'd know about if the car had run like that. That means there's a big leak and the oil is only very recent. Unless you know you spilled a ton of oil down the front of the engine (and you will have spilled some) whilst dismantling the cambox/head from the car, I think you need to look into this.

Are there signs of oil leaking from the joint between cam box and cylinder head and onto the exhaust manifold then down onto the turbo? I mean oil doesn't flow far uphill, so examining the oil on the manifold might give some idea where it's coming from. Was the head itself very oily in the manifold area?
Were the oil feed or return connections loose? Any signs of damage to either pipe?
How much dirt is stuck in the oil? The more dirt, the longer the leak has been in progress

The turbo itself looks clean and dry on the inside (aside from normal soot on the turbine side). This is good. But not shown is the inside of the output pipe from the compressor (the fat top pipe in pic.2). Some oiliness = normal. ****ing oil = failing bearing. Is there any trace at all of slop/movement/roughness in the bearing? Witness marks from contact between the impellers and casing?
I think I may be in the clear Halftone. The impellers seem steady, firm in place and rotate cleanly. The cam cover had no leak at its gasket. I did loosen the oil feed to the turbo/manifold at an earlier stage when it was on the vehicle which leak oil. I loosened thinking it was a mounting bolt, and soon realise to put it back. So I'm sure that's the reason for the issue you've picked up on. My concerns were with the compressor, but if that's normal then happy days. Dismantled now ready for deep clean n polish
Watch this space.
Going to call about and find out about head now.
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Sounds good, but

Pic 2: I'm 90% sure it is just the angle and light, but it looks like there are chunks missing from some of the compressor blades, lower left.
Pic 6: Is that how the interior of the exhaust side/VNT mechanism looked when you first opened the turbo? Or have you squirted a load of Plusgas in there? Oil in there could indicate a failed bearing seal. OTOH if the turbo has been sitting on a bench exhaust side down, I believe it's normal for oil to leak past into that area, so a possible false alarm.

If you're not sure, it might be an idea to check inside the catalyst and front end of the exhaust for oil that shouldn't be there.

I think this may be an 'ask an expert' situation as I don't have the experience to know the limits of normal.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by halftone View Post
Sounds good, but

Pic 2: I'm 90% sure it is just the angle and light, but it looks like there are chunks missing from some of the compressor blades, lower left.
Pic 6: Is that how the interior of the exhaust side/VNT mechanism looked when you first opened the turbo? Or have you squirted a load of Plusgas in there? Oil in there could indicate a failed bearing seal. OTOH if the turbo has been sitting on a bench exhaust side down, I believe it's normal for oil to leak past into that area, so a possible false alarm.

If you're not sure, it might be an idea to check inside the catalyst and front end of the exhaust for oil that shouldn't be there.

I think this may be an 'ask an expert' situation as I don't have the experience to know the limits of normal.
The oil is quite normal for a car that has done a few miles

It is not clear from the picture but it does look like the is a chip on the compressor

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Ah a fast expert

BTW, a shiny Autolusso reconditioned head turned up on the doorstep an hour ago, just 20hrs after I spoke to you. Thanks Ned!
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Plus Gas

The chips, I think it's just camera angle. I check again when I get home.
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The head is being replaced. Will be ordering from Autolusso tomorrow hopefully.

8 valve seats are damaged, repairable, but more expensive to do than ordering a reconditioned one. Not the news I was hoping for, but that's how the cookie crumbles, or swirl flaps fook up your car.

I'm doing piston and brake cleaner test as I message.

And the turbo definitely has no chips on either impeller. Any staining that's raised concerns, nothing to worry about, I have caused that with either Plus Gas or oil i have spelt.
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Shrapnel of a swirl flap on piston 4. Nice
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I think I left the piston test too long, looks even drainage but I got wrapped up putting kids in the bath.
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Piston test??? Advise or help needed.

Putting all pistons same level, then filling all 4 bores with brake cleaner. The fluid will drain. Will they drain at the exact same rate, at the exact same time? Or is there a tolerance for a slight difference?

If there was a damaged piston with a leak, would it be visable to see the brake cleaner level dropping or would it still take a long time?

What would be an acceptable time before all brake cleaner had drained (30mins, 1hr, 3hrs etc).

Even though 4 of my swirl flaps have broken off and falling in, 2 have been found in air tracks 1 and 3 inside the head and they have not entering the combustion chamber. The other two have been hammered into shrapnel inside piston 2 and 4 and blown out the exhaust it seems with very little remains to be found.

I would expect if any of the Pistons rings would leak, it would be the 2 and 4 as the flaps have been hammered in those. Is there any possibility piston ring 1 or 3 would leak even though the swirl flaps where stuck inside the head with no shrapnel from them.
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I don't know the answer to 'how long' because in the past when I've encountered knackered bores/lousy compression it's been very obvious, with bore wear forming a step you could trip over in the dark and clouds of smoke pouring out of the breather. I have owned some awful clunkers. I didn't need brake cleaner. I was once stopped by the police and told to get a rebore before they saw me again :-)

However it's reasonable to assume the compression on the cylinders that haven't swallowed swirl flaps is fine (because nothing can have damaged them, and your engine was running well previously). So what you're hoping not to find is fluid leaking away significantly faster from any cylinder that has had swirl flap damage to the piston.

As with a proper compression test, there is some leeway for acceptable variation. I'd expect ~20% or worse to show a problem. So if you put the same volume of brake fluid in each cylinder and note the depth, by the time the fluid has drained from the worst, measuring the depth of what remains in the others will give you a percentage deviation**. Though I'd hope they'd all be close enough to not have to faff around measuring because it's obvious they're all pretty similar. So the answer to 'how long' means keep an eye on the worst, then you'll have a valid relative indication.

**Actually it won't, because the cylinders are tilted you'd really need to suck the remaining fluid out and measure it as a percentage of the original volume. But let's hope that isn't necessary, that they're all near enough equal.

Last edited by halftone; 29-01-16 at 23:38. Reason: Added pedantry
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The reason I'm brought these questions to light is because the one bore that had slightly less fluid in it was one that has no visible damage, no pitting. No.3 which is one that I found the swirl flap stuck in the head and all the valves on that one are fine. So I was a little confused. Another test just to settle my head and I'm gona stay n watch it.
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1hr BORE DRAIN TEST

Photographs illustrate 10min intervals showing the brake cleaner that has been poured into the 4 piston bores draining away.

Results show bore 1 and 3 drain at the same pacers each other. Bore 2 and 4 alittle slower, but again at the same pace to each other.

Bore 2 and 4 are the two that had a swirl flaps drop into each at some point in the past before my ownership. Car ran fine to my knowledge in the time I have owned it.

If anyone can explain my findings I would be very grateful. Whether this is good or bad news. I can not see how it would be bad as 2 and 4 would have been in this condition a long time. The difference in drain time between both pairs I feel is marginal.

Full train time:
1 and 3, approx 1hr 10mins
2 and 4, approx 1hr 20mins
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I wouldn't worry about it. To me none of them look to be draining very much faster than others, there's just a bit of variation.

FWIW I did the same test today. After about 3/4 an hour it was obvious that #1 was weakest (dropped ~12mm), #2 and #4 were a little better (dropped ~6mm), and the best cylinder of the lot was #3 (dropped ~4mm) - which is the one that got clattered by flying swirl flap. So much the same outcome as you. The main thing is that I had and have no reason to suspect poor compression and the test shows no horrible problem with the rings on the piston that was hammered. Quite the opposite. I'm going to wipe the bores with fresh oil and put the reconditioned head on.

I also wasted time trying to quantify the smoothness of rotation of the crank, using a low-range torque wrench. It quickly became obvious that the motor was easier to turn around TDC and BDC, and less easy around the mid-stroke positions. That worried me for a minute, but then I realised that of course it would be like that. For a given force at the crank pulley the conrod is trying to move the piston almost no distance at TDC/BDC, whilst at mid stroke it moves it a lot. Frictional resistance is the same, but at TDC/BDC the crank is functioning as a lever with a much higher ratio (large input distance:small output distance). So torque required to turn the crank will vary through 2 maximums and minimums per rotation - exactly as I found.

In the end this was no help for finding a potentially bent conrod. The engine felt smooth and I could turn it 180deg without much effort using a 9" wrench, but that's as much as I could say. From the previous owner's disclosure it seems certain the flap fell off 4,000 miles ago. Nothing has gone bang since. In fact it's amazing how well it ran in view of the leaky bent inlet valve. Today I noticed that if I looked down the port I could see a crescent of daylight around the bent inlet valve in the old head. I'm confident I've found and fixed the stuff that's wrong, so now I've switched to cleaning and painting bits in the shed and making room to take the turbo apart.
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Your drain tests looks ok, if you had a scored bore it would drain much quicker than the others, as it did when you did the same test on the valves.

One thing I think you should do is to take the turbine housing off the turbo because there could be pieces of the flaps stuck around the vnt vanes upstream from the turbine, the side of the turbine you can see is the outlet.
Its only a few bolts and also the actuator rod and the turbo core will just tap off and to refit you just need to line up the pin with the vnt mechanism but you will see that if you take it apart.

Last edited by JON156VELOCE; 30-01-16 at 21:24.
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I just noticed you gave full drain times
Quote:
1 and 3, approx 1hr 10mins
2 and 4, approx 1hr 20mins
So if 2 & 4 = 100%, 1 and 3 = (70/80 * 100/1) = 12.5% difference, well inside the ~20% start-to-worry-a-bit threshold.
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Originally Posted by JON156VELOCE View Post
Your drain tests looks ok, if you had a scored bore it would drain much quicker than the others, as it did when you did the same test on the valves.

One thing I think you should do is to take the turbine housing off the turbo because there could be pieces of the flaps stuck around the vnt vanes upstream from the gurbine, the side of the turbine you can see is the outlet.
Its only a few bolts and also the actuator rod and the turbo core will just tap off and to refit you just need to l7ne up the pin with the vnt mechanisum but you will see that if you take it apart.
I'm three steps ahead of you, I've completely dismantle it. Watch this space. No shrapnel in manifold or turbo/turbine. Cat has a long nose down to the honeycomb and I can't see in there. I can only see the honeycomb from the exit side.

In the piston/bore there are signs of large silver dust. Guaranteed to be some of the flaps pulverised. Iv found 3 large pieces, middle sizes one is the one pictured on the two pence. Another 3x that size which dropped from somewhere when I took the head off, and another smaller which was wedged into the top of a piston.

I was confident when I was monitoring the drain test all was well. Glad you have reinforced my findings. Very happy you had a similar outcome. I needed this test cleared before investing in a head from Ned.

Block to clean is next. How do you drain the coolant, as so far iv just drained what has come from parts iv disconnected? It'll be impossible for plus gas n possibly dirt to fall into coolant and oil openings on the block. Any suggestions with this appreciated.
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I have the turbo in bits too, currently all the exhaust side bits are having an overnight bath in Mr Muscle. I've found no shrapnel at all, but a small 3mm pea of what I thought was metal fell out from behind the variable vanes. Perhaps that was what was causing them to stick halfway. However it turned out to be just a lump of carbon, not metal. Turbo seems utterly unscathed here and very clean and unworn. Nothing loose in the cat. Another large money pit dodged.

It'll be good to give the turbo oil feed pipe a good flush through with brake cleaner. As I mentioned, Ned said to discard the gauze filter at the block banjo fitting as it clogs up and restricts oil feed to the turbo, and that kills the turbo.

Cleaning the block surface. Well, it's an iron block so a steel scraper or Stanley blade is usable if you're careful. Don't try to get it stain free, just smooth/flat. Not pushing rubbish into the holes is far preferable to trying to get it out. Especially don't push crap into oil passages. You can plug the holes with twists of clean cloth provided they are big enough to not get pushed right in and disappear.

As mentioned earlier head bolt holes have to be cleared of oil, else you get a hydraulic lock. In the past I've used coat hanger wire bent back on itself an inch at the bottom with a strip of cloth pegged through the bent-over bit then wound round the wire to make a sort of giant pipe cleaner that you insert and twist. Old cotton shirt is good as it's thin and doesn't shed fibres. Tedious and uses quite a lot of strips if there's much oil, but works.

If you want to drain the remaining coolant you can unfasten the bottom hose. But if any debris does fall into coolant holes does it's easier to use a twist of cloth to soak up coolant+crap, where draining it right down makes that impossible. As long as it's below the gasket level a few mm I'd leave it as it is. Mine is the same, BTW, and I'm not draining it.

Another Ned tip: free off the lifters before putting them back, as they gum up. He said they put them in a vice, gently, to get them moving. I'll probably give mine a bit of a bath in carb cleaner, pump them a bit, let them dry off then pump them in clean oil. Oil their wells before they go back in, and both ends of the rockers.

I'm going to put the turbo/manifold back, and then get stuck. Before I can put the head back I need to figure out how to get the huge HP pump bracket off the back of the block so I can (hopefully) get to the alternator which is still the prime suspect for my rattle, despite the one-way pulley seeming to function correctly.
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Both turbos healthy for us then, Good job. Mr muscle on the alloy side turbo will go very black and not nice, shiny and clean alloy. Bit of work to clean up again if your bothered what it looks like.

I'll have a look for the gauze filter for the oil feed. Havnt seen it yet.

Great tips on cleaning block, thanks. I was asking as a small level of brake cleaner has gone on top of the coolant with a small amount of carbon debris. But I can probably fish that out.

Head bolt holes notes, extra caution on that one.

When I get there I will need to ask more about the top tip with the lifters. I might need photograph illustration to help me there.

The 3 bolts that are fixed to the bracket to hold the HP fuel pump must be able to be removed without touching the bracket. They look like they can, so I asked a dealer if they have a part number for just the bolt alone or can be ordered. They can. So that suggests they are removable. How, I do not know. I can only think putting a nut on one, tightening it right down to the base of the thread to see if it releases. It looksssibly has a reverse thread. I don't know of a way to grab the bolt otherwise. Suggestions welcome anyone.
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