Swirl flaps How To and MAF clean How To anywhere? 159 1.9 - Page 5 - Alfa Romeo Forum
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Originally Posted by Resolution View Post
I'm struggling with the head gasket set and where to by it from. These sets have so many gaskets and I'm being told there are different sets so I'm confused. Also being told head gasket is sold as a separate item. Difficult as you can't see what your buying.

Main dealer was a rip off.

Also, any advice on coolant would b great. Stuff that drained out was a pinky colour.
This where you need to be really careful

If the head has been shimmed without the valve heights being reset you need to use the thicker 2 hole head gasket. If the head has been properly recondition and the valve hights reset you need a 1 hole head gasket. If you are taking the risk that we don't take and go again with the head without get it reconditioned you need to use the same type of head gasket that came off it, 1 hole or 2 hole (I have seen 3 hole but very rare

Note different manufacturers can list these slightly differently

No hole = 0.82 mm
1 hole = 0.90 mm
2 hole = 1.02 mm

Also the is a variation on the head sets, there are 2 variations and the difference with these is the size of the valve stem oil seals, early cars have thicker valves, changed in about 2006 ish

The head sets are sold separately to the head gaskets for this reason

We have all the gaskets in stock

Ned

Last edited by Autolusso; 22-01-16 at 12:11.
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On the same subject

We have one in for a swirl flap delete and 3 of the of the flaps are missing, cylinder one still in place, cylinder 2 missing, cylinder 3 visible behind the the in take valve, cylinder 4 missing

Head coming off

Ned
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I remember you saying Ned that I was half way there when I had the manifold off. That's debatable

Not that's it not still an option for me to buy a recon head from you Ned but I am looking into my options, as cost is a massive factor and iv over spent beyond my limits and not finished yet. I found a local business by recommendation that can recon the head, but they need to see it to give me a quote.

The surcharge and the Unknown if my cylinder head will be acceptable is an issue with cost, but I totally agree and understand this process.

If I can get my own reconditioned and for less that £200 I will be happy.

Did you say £200 is including VAT and a gasket?
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I remember you saying Ned that I was half way there when I had the manifold off. That's debatable

Not that's it not still an option for me to buy a recon head from you Ned but I am looking into my options, as cost is a massive factor and iv over spent beyond my limits and not finished yet. I found a local business by recommendation that can recon the head, but they need to see it to give me a quote.

The surcharge and the Unknown if my cylinder head will be acceptable is an issue with cost, but I totally agree and understand this process.

If I can get my own reconditioned and for less that £200 I will be happy.

Did you say £200 is including VAT and a gasket?
Lets see what it looks like when you get the head off and take it from there

I have all the gaskets in stock and they will be correct

Reconditioned head is £200 + VAT

You need to be so careful with this as if your local place skimms the head without resetting the valves you will need a thicker head gasket or the valves will hit the pistons

Ned
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I looked for and found single Ribes, but they cost more than that set, £40 and up, each! The Laser ribes, same as the ones in the set, are available individually and are much cheaper Ribe Profile | Specialist Bit Sets products from Laser Tools but I didn't find any being sold anywhere I could buy them easily and not have mail delays.

I'm not 100% sure about it being M14 heads despite having spent an inordinate amount of time looking for answers on the web. About 95% sure but some Alfas (TS) have M13 apparently. That was another reason for hedging my bets by buying the set. If you can wait until tomorrow I'll be able to tell you for sure after I collect from Halfords as I've decided getting the head off is more important than food etc.

I've not begun to look for gaskets and stuff yet. There will be quite a pile: head gasket, cam box, inlet and exhaust gasket, valve seals. Usually it's much cheaper to buy a cylinder head overhaul kit than individual bits.

I also don't know if the 10 head bolts are re-usable, or single-use stretch type. Stretch ones usually have a pronounced concave waist to the shaft, rather than straight. The only pic I found was ambiguous. But I expect they are stretch.

I'm sure it'll work out eye-watering anyhow.

Pink antifreeze = probably Paraflu, Alfa's brand of choice.
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I looked for and found single Ribes, but they cost more than that set, £40 and up, each! The Laser ribes, same as the ones in the set, are available individually and are much cheaper Ribe Profile | Specialist Bit Sets products from Laser Tools but I didn't find any being sold anywhere I could buy them easily and not have mail delays.

I'm not 100% sure about it being M14 heads despite having spent an inordinate amount of time looking for answers on the web. About 95% sure but some Alfas (TS) have M13 apparently. That was another reason for hedging my bets by buying the set. If you can wait until tomorrow I'll be able to tell you for sure after I collect from Halfords as I've decided getting the head off is more important than food etc.

I've not begun to look for gaskets and stuff yet. There will be quite a pile: head gasket, cam box, inlet and exhaust gasket, valve seals. Usually it's much cheaper to buy a cylinder head overhaul kit than individual bits.

I also don't know if the 10 head bolts are re-usable, or single-use stretch type. Stretch ones usually have a pronounced concave waist to the shaft, rather than straight. The only pic I found was ambiguous. But I expect they are stretch.

I'm sure it'll work out eye-watering anyhow.

Pink antifreeze = probably Paraflu, Alfa's brand of choice.
From us the head set is £57 + VAT

Head gasket £25 + VAT

We know you are on a budget so you can go again with the head bolts

Here is a picture of one we are doing today

Ned
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Does not mater about the brand of antifreeze as long as it is pink, we use Fuchs

You should also be fitting new belt and pump but again I know you are on a budget

Ned
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From us the head set is £57 + VAT

Head gasket £25 + VAT

We know you are on a budget so you can go again with the head bolts

Here is a picture of one we are doing today

Ned
Thanks Ned. Top man. Good to know the bolts have been approved by you for reuse. Definately helps the budget. I will have a shop around for the antifreeze and see what comes up. I'm being lazy now, who knows how many litres you need?
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Ah, thanks Ned. It had actually occurred to me that skimming a flat head could have very bad results.

Those seem keen prices

The pic is informative, thanks. It answers my question about the HP pump bracket. Also it looks like it's possible to leave the exhaust manifold/turbo in place out front once pulled off the studs, which I had wondered about, and saves some disconnecting.
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One thing I not thought about yet, 'Hose Clips'. Obviously not gona put those stupid one use super awkward to get at clip that are standard that need that special tool. Gona have to count n measure all the pipes lol. Yippee.
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I bought a box of ~35 assorted sized stainless Jubilee clips + nut driver on eBay a while back for, I think, £9 or so incl. P&P. I've only used a couple and they seem OK quality. I think they should do most of the hose unions I've taken off, except maybe 1 or 2 of the larger hoses with those awful single-use roll-clip things I don't even understand.

[EDIT: Like these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hose-Clamp...-/390525716576 ]

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Thanks halftone, I'll do a trip to machine mart and see what they have. It would be great if you can confirm the ribe size for the head bolts as soon as you have time. Much appreciated
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Wilco. Machine Mart have the same Draper set of ribes for £39.99 vs. Halfords £31.50 after TOOLS10 10% discount. I was shocked to find Halfords being cheaper for anything....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autolusso View Post
On the same subject

We have one in for a swirl flap delete and 3 of the of the flaps are missing, cylinder one still in place, cylinder 2 missing, cylinder 3 visible behind the the in take valve, cylinder 4 missing

Head coming off

Ned
Really interested to know what damage is there Ned. What needs to be done now the head is off, had you found the 3 flaps and where? Is there and damage further beyond the head? Even though I'm sure your putting a new head on this, what damage is there on the head that came off? Does the evidence in hand look like the flaps have been off a while?

I'm curious what I will be looking for. What tell tail signs of damage I should be looking to spot.
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I confirm the Ribe size needed is M14 - just collected from Halfords and tried in the headbolt.
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It will be quite obvious if a flap has got past the inlet valves and entered the combustion space. Look for the head being literally hammered by the swirl flap being trapped between it and the piston, which will also be damaged if this has happened. Collateral damage is also possible, to the bore, the turbo. At some point it becomes less work and cheaper to abandon repairs and fit a replacement used engine or scrap the car for parts.

I really hope neither of us are facing this outcome.

[EDIT: doh, I knew I'd seen pictures somewhere, at Autolusso, as it turns out http://www.autolusso.co.uk/swirl-flap.html ]
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It will be quite obvious if a flap has got past the inlet valves and entered the combustion space. Look for the head being literally hammered by the swirl flap being trapped between it and the piston, which will also be damaged if this has happened. Collateral damage is also possible, to the bore, the turbo. At some point it becomes less work and cheaper to abandon repairs and fit a replacement used engine or scrap the car for parts.

I really hope neither of us are facing this outcome.

[EDIT: doh, I knew I'd seen pictures somewhere, at Autolusso, as it turns out Autolusso - Swirl Flap Delete ]
If it looks like the one on our web site it will need the sump taking off and piston, con rod, big end bearing replacing and head replacing, as long as the bore is OK

This is why we recommend swirl flap delete

Ned
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I confirm the Ribe size needed is M14 - just collected from Halfords and tried in the headbolt.
Thanks Halftone, just put an order in. Just a waiting game now.

Praying no damage beyond head.
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Hmmm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolution View Post
Really interested to know what damage is there Ned. What needs to be done now the head is off, had you found the 3 flaps and where? Is there and damage further beyond the head? Even though I'm sure your putting a new head on this, what damage is there on the head that came off? Does the evidence in hand look like the flaps have been off a while?

I'm curious what I will be looking for. What tell tail signs of damage I should be looking to spot.
That's my car in the pic. I think I've been really lucky. Minimal damage only one of the 3 missing flaps found stuck in the intake valve. The other two nowhere to be found
turbo was taken apart not there although there is a small chip in the vane. I'm not to worried about that though as it's whistled for as long as I've had it and the guy I bought it off said it had it when he bought it a year previous to that so I think the chip has been there at least a couple of years and it's still fine. Cat inspected and not there either. It's a mystery.
Ned told me to go and buy a lottery ticket. If I had any spare cash after this I might just do that
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Just an interim report. Struggling somewhat.
- I was wrong about the exhaust manifold. It seems it has to come off completely, not just be pulled forward off the studs. It also seems unlikely to come off without disconnection from the front catalyst first. And f* knows what else.
- The exhaust pipe can be left connected at the joint behind the flexy joint, at least until/unless the sump has to come off. It just dangles.
- watch out for the central 11mm nut on the underside of the manifold. Easy to miss as it's invisible. There may be others I still haven't found yet
- dear god, the thermostat and EGR tube. They have to be detached from the head so it can lift, but can be left in place. Just mad. So many tubes, such inaccessible fastenings. There seems to be a diagonal bolt right through the middle of the thermostat... WTF.... Still puzzling...

Last edited by halftone; 23-01-16 at 16:58.
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Bad light stopped play. Following on from my previous:

- The weird diagonal bolt in the thermostat only holds a hose bracket in place. Nevertheless removing it allows the rats nest of hoses to be pushed aside so the thermostat and EGR-tube/heat exchanger bolts are more accessible.
- On the other side of the engine, the top hose is right in the way of the lower of two bolts that holds the EGR-heat-exchanger-feed-pipe to the head. I wasted at least 15 mins trying, before giving in and pulling the top hose off. Then it was easy.

I think all I have left to do now are the
- the lambda sensor has to come out of the front catalyst so I can get the lower cover off the turbo properly, so I have better access to...
- undo the big clamp that holds the cat and turbo together, then remove the cat. This looks awkward, needs a very deep socket or ratchet ring spanner. A sparkplug socket or box spanner may work. We'll see.
- undo the oil feed and return pipes to the turbo
- disconnect the lower turbo (air) hose - the one that wears through - from the turbo
- remove the exhaust manifold with turbo

Then I think the head should come off. Unless there is a bolt hidden underneath the HP fuel pump bracket, which wouldn't surprise me.

If anyone is puzzled by the cylinder head looking now like a lawnmower, it's just that the cambox is off and there's a fine bathroom towel keeping dust, stray bolts and mice out of the rockers, with the top turbo cover laying on top.
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@alastairlever. Wow. Good news indeed. Even better, you don't have to put it back together yourself What made you take it to Autolusso for de-flapping? Were there any symptoms?
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Jesus halftone, I thought I was nearly there. The exhaust manifold, turbo and cat all seem like a right pain in the arse. Iv already remove thermostat and egr cooler n bracket from the head. Everything I can access top end I'm sure iv done. Just a few hrs underneath now hopefully before getting at the head.

Been super lucky today. Had a mechanic (friend of a friend) said he would loan me a ribe set and a decent torque wrench which cuts alittle cost.

If it's not raining in the morning I will get out and have a look underneath. But it will prob be Tuesday before I can to the head.

Very pleased for you that your motor in Autolusso got away fairly unscathed from the nasty swirl flaps. Just hoping the odds that mine with 4 flaps gone can be the second miracle of the week.
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It's not that bad, really - just trying to figure out what has to come off and what doesn't, in what order, and not do more than necessary. It's a more complicated vehicle than I am used to, by a factor of about 3, or 20 years, with some 'interesting' access issues. Still, since crawling underneath I am now growing very fond of Plus Gas, on this car.
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It's not that bad, really - just trying to figure out what has to come off and what doesn't, in what order, and not do more than necessary. It's a more complicated vehicle than I am used to, by a factor of about 3, or 20 years, with some 'interesting' access issues. Still, since crawling underneath I am now growing very fond of Plus Gas, on this car.
That's because your getting high smelling so much of it
I bought PlusGas for the 1st in Euro car parts the other day. They had never heard of it even though they had 3 tons out in storage on the shelf. They couldn't even find it on there system until found a random link for it through Google and was able to get there stock number.
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