Swirl flaps How To and MAF clean How To anywhere? 159 1.9 - Page 10 - Alfa Romeo Forum
You are currently unregistered, register for more features.    
 33Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Status: New quiet lifters
AO Silver Member
 
halftone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: Greater London
Garage
There's an array of very tiny holes. Don't try and poke anything in them, just wipe away carbon with brake cleaner on a cloth.

If you want to clean the injector guts DIY you can try this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_LLIXMMKS0

Personally I doubt that is capable of doing anything useful. Fuel pressure at the nozzles is colossal (~100Bar), and if fuel doesn't keep the nozzles clear, they need professional testing on a high pressure rig, to check pattern and flow quantities. Unless you suspect you have injector issues, that's needless expense. However I may be talking out of my a*se, and a pro/expert might advise it's good to rinse them out.

I'm pretty much stalled now, owing to lack of money for the time being.

[EDIT: On second thoughts I suppose there is a point in squirting cleaner through the injectors, as in the Youtube video. At least it allows you to see whether all the nozzles are clear.]
halftone is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Status: Busy busy busy!
Club Member
 
Pud237's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: United Kingdom
County: Cumbria
I would advise leaving the injectors well alone. Just clean the exterior, don't touch the tip other than with a sponge or something soft. Try and avoiding dropping them too!
halftone likes this.
Pud237 is offline  
Status: New quiet lifters
AO Silver Member
 
halftone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: Greater London
Garage
I just realised I do have something to do: get 16 hydraulic lifters freed off. Ned suggested squeezing them gently in a vice. All of mine seem pretty solid, and from the couple I had freed off by hand, they should have about 2mm movement against their internal spring. Exercising them in brake cleaner might help flush out gunge, but they want to go back in the head well oiled and, as far as possible, full of clean engine oil. So they want exercising to expel brake cleaner, then allowed to dry off. Then exercising in oil. They'll rattle a bit on startup anyway before they fill up and pressurise.

It's vital no oily internals go back dry. We've washed every bit of oil from the bores with brake cleaner, and they need a good wipe of engine oil and turn the crank over a few times so it gets to the pistons and rings.

After the head is back on the lifters' wells in the head need oil too, before putting them back. Ditto rockers and their roller bearings also need to go back well oiled. They should go back in the positions they came from as the pads will have bedded to their respective cam lobes. Also oil the lobes and pads, enclosed gears...
halftone is offline  
Status: Always working
Identity Confirmed
Authorised Trader
 
Autolusso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Bedfordshire
Images: 222
One of you guys has sent me the cylinder head back for the surcharge but it does not say who it is from on or in the box

Ned
Autolusso is offline  
(Post Link) post #230 of 410 Old 04-02-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Resolution's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
County: -Swansea
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Autolusso View Post
One of you guys has sent me the cylinder head back for the surcharge but it does not say who it is from on or in the box

Ned
Not me as iv not bought one from you yet. Gona be Tuesday I think.
Resolution is offline  
(Post Link) post #231 of 410 Old 04-02-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Resolution's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
County: -Swansea
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by halftone View Post
I just realised I do have something to do: get 16 hydraulic lifters freed off. Ned suggested squeezing them gently in a vice. All of mine seem pretty solid, and from the couple I had freed off by hand, they should have about 2mm movement against their internal spring. Exercising them in brake cleaner might help flush out gunge, but they want to go back in the head well oiled and, as far as possible, full of clean engine oil. So they want exercising to expel brake cleaner, then allowed to dry off. Then exercising in oil. They'll rattle a bit on startup anyway before they fill up and pressurise.

After the head is back on the lifters' wells in the head need oil too, before putting them back. Ditto rockers and their roller bearings also need to go back well oiled. They should go back in the positions they came from as the pads will have bedded to their respective cam lobes. Also oil the lobes and pads, enclosed gears...
Holes on the injectors are microscopic. Can just see them now. My injector bodies where swollen with rust patches and needed a good rub down. This is why they were extremely hard to get out. I let them sit in Brake cleaner 36hrs before I touched them.

Gona need help with what part is what inside the head. Rockers, pads, lobes, enclosed gears, roller bearings, lifters wells etc. I havnt a clue. I need a closer look at the 16 little things I removed before takin out the head. First time I have seen the insides of an engine like this and the only parts I know from the bottom of the head are the valves.
Resolution is offline  
(Post Link) post #232 of 410 Old 04-02-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Resolution's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
County: -Swansea
Garage
Click HERE to view what your air intake manifold could be like inside. This is 100k miles and explains very easily why the swirl flaps get stuck and break off over time.
Resolution is offline  
(Post Link) post #233 of 410 Old 04-02-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Resolution's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
County: -Swansea
Garage
Looks nice, just hope it works.

What stage are you at Halftone? Did you fit the head yet? What else do you need to get that's holding you off?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image_1454623066126.jpg (74.3 KB, 25 views)
Resolution is offline  
Status: New quiet lifters
AO Silver Member
 
halftone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: Greater London
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Autolusso View Post
One of you guys has sent me the cylinder head back for the surcharge but it does not say who it is from on or in the box

Ned
Hi Ned, That was mine! I tracked it as delivered to AL ~4.30 Thursday.

When it left here I reused your 'documents enclosed' envelope stuck to the LHS front, and it contained a label showing your name and address, my name (Tony Sleep) and address, and the AL invoice number it related to (17509 28/01/2016 a/c SLE006.) But maybe the courier shredded it. When he collected he asked if he needed a trolley. He had it on his schedule as collecting 84 of them, instead of 1...

Last edited by halftone; 05-02-16 at 00:38.
halftone is offline  
Status: New quiet lifters
AO Silver Member
 
halftone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: Greater London
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolution View Post
Looks nice, just hope it works.

What stage are you at Halftone? Did you fit the head yet? What else do you need to get that's holding you off?
A work of art, Resolution But how on earth did you get away with parking it in the kitchen?

I don't think I'll bother with painting the cam box, but the exhaust shields and exhaust manifold could do with it. I did paint my inlet as it had discoloured horribly c/o oven cleaner, but the left-over heat-proof Yamaha engine case paint I had looks far too sparkly silver. Nobody will see it though. Otherwise I still want to remove the HP pump bracket so I can at least check and perhaps service or replace the alternator because of the rattle I had. So there is that, and I need to buy a small pile of other stuff before I can put the head back. I have unfortunately overspent already this month.
halftone is offline  
Status: New quiet lifters
AO Silver Member
 
halftone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: Greater London
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolution View Post
Click HERE to view what your air intake manifold could be like inside. This is 100k miles and explains very easily why the swirl flaps get stuck and break off over time.
Ugh. Personally I don't think the carbon has a lot to do with the flaps breaking off. It's quite soft and gets shoved out of the way by the flaps. From looking at mine it seemed to be wear in the pathetic, plastic top bearings that was the cause, allowing the flaps to move sideways and jam against the metal of the port as they operate. By the time they've done that a few thousand times, I think the spot welds give up, and the rest is history.
halftone is offline  
(Post Link) post #237 of 410 Old 04-02-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Resolution's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
County: -Swansea
Garage
I do agree with that last comment. The cheap plastic mechanism they installed on these to control the swirl flaps is shocking. Mine was knackered. And probable cause too. Posted that vid of inside the air intake manifold as I couldn't believe the oily caked carbon build up. Took me 4 or 5 days of cleaning to sort that out.

The wife can't argue with me about where I leave the engine bits, I'm a very tidy worker and she mainly drives the Alfa, so she dare not say anything haha.

Little does she know, but for mysterious mechanical reasons, once it's back together I will have to drive it, just to be on the safe side "wink wink".
Resolution is offline  
Status: New quiet lifters
AO Silver Member
 
halftone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: Greater London
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolution View Post
Gona need help with what part is what inside the head. Rockers, pads, lobes, enclosed gears, roller bearings, lifters wells etc. I havnt a clue. I need a closer look at the 16 little things I removed before takin out the head.
Righto.

Those 16 little things are the rockers, that actuate the valves, attached by spring clip to the hydraulic lifters (the tubular things).

The rockers have a central roller bearing that bears on the lobe of the camshaft that controls its opening and closing. At the opposite end of the rocker is a small pad that bears on the end of the valve stem.

The hydraulic lifter is an adjuster in this design, that sets the correct height of the fulcrum for the rocker. There has to be just the right amount of valve clearance (free play aka valve lash) to allow valves to seat fully in the head, when closed. No gap and the valve may be held slightly open, losing compression and possibly damaging the valves and head; also the rockers will press continuously on the cam causing wear. Too much gap and valves can't open fully because of lost movement so not enough air gets in and not enough exhaust gets out (and you get terrible rattles as the oscillating bits of metal hammer each other). In other engine designs a screw and locknut mechanism may be used to manually adjust free play, or shims are used. The lifters are devices to manage the correct clearance automatically, by the magic of hydraulics.

Each lifter contains a spring operated valve. In the head each sits in a well of oil that is pressurised when the engine is running - you'll see a small oil hole at the bottom of the 'well' through which oil enters under oil pump pressure, and a small hole in the side of the lifter body through which oil pumps up the adjuster just enough to raise that end of the rocker to the correct height for the rocker to be correctly operated by the cam lobe bearing down on its roller bearing.

Have a look at the lobe and you can see from the shape how it works. As the cam rotates, the lobe bears down on the roller bearing and the because the rocker is supported at the lifter end it 'rocks', opening and closing the valve.

(Whilst looking at the lobes of the cam, check that they all look smooth and unworn, without blueing or chips or deep scuffs or scratches. Cams are sensitive to neglected oil quality and can wear badly once the surface hardening is damaged. Also check the roller bearings of rockers for smoothness and absence of slop or signs of break-up, the rockers themselves for cracks or signs of bending, and the pad on the end of each rocker that bears on the valve stem tip, for damage and wear. It will very likely all be fine but if any of this stuff is knackered, now is the time to change it).

For correct operation and the right valve clearance, the internal parts of the lifter have to be free to move so they can 'pump up' correctly. They're small, with tight tolerances, and the oil supply hole is small, and over time they can accumulate sludge and crap that tends to prevent them working properly (= 'sticky lifters').

Most of mine are rather sticky and stiff. If I squeeze one end against the other, they barely move. Ned's advice of gently using a vice is designed to dislodge the sludge that is clogging them up and free up the mechanism. They only have a couple of mm of movement against internal spring pressure, when operating correctly, so don't strong arm them expecting more, they'll just break. Once you have a bit of free movement you can dunk them in brake cleaner and pump them to inhale the solvent and expel the crud. Once they're free, squeeze them to expel brake cleaner and leave them to dry out. Then exercise them in some clean engine oil to try and fill them somewhat. They will fill up to the correct extent once you start the engine, but may well make a scary rattle for a brief while until the engine has pumped them up.

On some designs of hydraulic lifter, you can dismantle them to clean them out more thoroughly. I don't know about these Fiat ones, but I'd avoid it if possible. There's usually a collection of tiny parts including springs, shims, balls, sleeves and pingfukkits that are easily lost and/or don't want to go back together easily.

All the bits inside the cambox need to be free of grit and well coated in fresh new oil as you reassemble.

PS: You only need the camlock in the front hole, for the exhaust cam, when installing the timing belt. If you use the rear, inlet cam lock, it will just get in the way of replacing the inlet and HP fuel pump, and it isn't needed because the two cams cannot move independently of each other. You get both with a timing kit because both are needed if you have removed one or both cams from the cambox. They are both required to time the cams to each other.

Last edited by halftone; 05-02-16 at 02:26.
halftone is offline  
Status: Always working
Identity Confirmed
Authorised Trader
 
Autolusso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Bedfordshire
Images: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by halftone View Post
Hi Ned, That was mine! I tracked it as delivered to AL ~4.30 Thursday.

When it left here I reused your 'documents enclosed' envelope stuck to the LHS front, and it contained a label showing your name and address, my name (Tony Sleep) and address, and the AL invoice number it related to (17509 28/01/2016 a/c SLE006.) But maybe the courier shredded it. When he collected he asked if he needed a trolley. He had it on his schedule as collecting 84 of them, instead of 1...
It arrived yesterday with no label, give me a call today sometime and I can refund your surcharge

Ned
Autolusso is offline  
Status: New quiet lifters
AO Silver Member
 
halftone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: Greater London
Garage
Thanks Ned
halftone is offline  
Status: New quiet lifters
AO Silver Member
 
halftone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: Greater London
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolution View Post
I couldn't believe the oily caked carbon build up.
Yep. Mine wasn't as bad, but still horrible. What do you plan doing with your EGR? Only blanking it off (and having it mapped out of ECU software to prevent fault codes) is going to stop new soot being deposited. Autolusso do that for 150, but then a full 300 remap can include EGR delete and looks better value... I had briefly installed a 4-hole restrictor plate, but now that it's all clean I think I'll blank off the EGR when putting it back together, and put up with the MCSF light until I can afford the ECU tweaking.
halftone is offline  
(Post Link) post #242 of 410 Old 05-02-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Resolution's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
County: -Swansea
Garage
As everything is spotless now I want to blank it completely. But as I can't afford remap just yet, I was going to reinstall the partial blanking plates, and once iv saved the pennies, send off the ECU to Ned for a egr delete? I don't do high mileage so a few months I wouldn't have thought to be a problem.

I thought a total blank without a remap would risk it going into limp mode, no?

What's the difference is the 150 remap (which I'm guessing is just EGR deleted/switched of from software) and the full remap at 300?

Thanks again for your explanation of the head components. Very very helpful as usual. Top job.

I dismantled the oil pump in last 24hrs as I was afraid of contaminates inside it.
Resolution is offline  
Status: Always working
Identity Confirmed
Authorised Trader
 
Autolusso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Bedfordshire
Images: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolution View Post
As everything is spotless now I want to blank it completely. But as I can't afford remap just yet, I was going to reinstall the partial blanking plates, and once iv saved the pennies, send off the ECU to Ned for a egr delete? I don't do high mileage so a few months I wouldn't have thought to be a problem.

I thought a total blank without a remap would risk it going into limp mode, no?

What's the difference is the 150 remap (which I'm guessing is just EGR deleted/switched of from software) and the full remap at 300?

Thanks again for your explanation of the head components. Very very helpful as usual. Top job.

I dismantled the oil pump in last 24hrs as I was afraid of contaminates inside it.
You didn't need to dismantle the oil pump

EGR delete will ensure it won't soot up and will make it a little more powerful, EGR delete and map with give quite a bit more power as well

Ned
Autolusso is offline  
Status: New quiet lifters
AO Silver Member
 
halftone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: Greater London
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Resolution View Post
I thought a total blank without a remap would risk it going into limp mode, no?
As far as I can tell from these forums, I believe the MCSF light will come on eventually and an EGR fault will be logged, but it won't trigger limp mode on our CF4 generation or earlier. It can do on later cars. Hopefully Ned or Pud will say if I have got this wrong.
halftone is offline  
(Post Link) post #245 of 410 Old 05-02-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Resolution's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
County: -Swansea
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Autolusso View Post
You didn't need to dismantle the oil pump

Ned
Even if it was soaked in water, brake cleaner, Gunk etc. I just being extremely cautious I guess. Also a great way to learn how things work.
Resolution is offline  
(Post Link) post #246 of 410 Old 05-02-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Resolution's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
County: -Swansea
Garage
In regards to blanking the EGR, the blanking plates go on each side of the EGR, same as iv done with the partial blanking plates.
Just a thought as everything is disconnected, couldn't the smaller blanking plate be installed at the exhaust manifold where the egr feed comes from rather than the EGR itself?
Resolution is offline  
Status: New quiet lifters
AO Silver Member
 
halftone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: Greater London
Garage
At the turbo end of the EGR pipe? I don't see why not.
halftone is offline  
(Post Link) post #248 of 410 Old 05-02-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Resolution's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
County: -Swansea
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by halftone View Post
At the turbo end of the EGR pipe? I don't see why not.
Yes, the outlet to the EGR. Bottom left of this picture. If it's going to be blanked off it doesn't make sense to me why exhaust gases need to travel up the cooling pipe to the EGR to a dead end. Gas flow would be better I feel if it was blanked off nearer the source. My only question would be regarding the gaskets for the blanking plate, would they cope with the higher temperatures (if I'm correct thinking this fact)?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image_1454713075164.jpg (58.7 KB, 7 views)
Resolution is offline  
Status: New quiet lifters
AO Silver Member
 
halftone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: Greater London
Garage
The stock gasket is metal plate at both ends of the pipe. You only need one, on the gas side of a plate with no holes. No gas is going to flow through the pipe wherever you block it, because it is blocked

I don't think it will matter where you put the blocking plate, though I suppose a bit less heat will get to the EGR if you block it there or at the entry to the EGR rather than the exit to the inlet manifold - but hey, EGR's live in hot gas. If you do block it at the turbo end you could possibly discard the entire EGR tube including the EGR heat exchanger, as long as you connect its water inlet to water outlet somehow. You could possibly also dispense with the EGR valve itself if the ECU can be fooled by a resistor/s (no idea what value) at its connection, if the remapping can cope with that. Then you'd have a blank at the turbo end and another at the inlet manifold and nothing in between, and about 2kg of junk and a tidier engine bay.

One reason for not doing that is that leaving all the EGR stuff in place looks standard, and that may matter someday soon during MOT test, given the War on Diesel. On later cars that had DPF's, people deleted them and chucked them away, and that was allowed, but now it isn't. MOT now includes a visual check on whether a car that should have a DPF still has one. So if they had thrown theirs away, they now have to spend a small fortune on reinstating parts that often mess up the running even worse than EGR's do. I think a brand new DPF can be not far off 800, as the rear catalyst is combined into the same exhaust box.

Personally I'll leave it looking stock, with an EGR circuit that is easy to reinstate should it become necessary. I'll probably put a plate on the inlet to the EGR valve and/or one on the outlet, since that's a 5minute top of the engine job, where disconnecting the pipe at the turbo is more painful.
halftone is offline  
(Post Link) post #250 of 410 Old 06-02-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Resolution's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
County: -Swansea
Garage
I think I will blank mine at the turbo, as long as your sure it won't be a problem with it blanked completely until I have the money to do the ECU. That might be 1-2k miles only.

Has anyone been in touch about your new inlet manifold. Would you consider selling me just the MAP sensor? Is it a Bosch sensor? I'm not sure of these others on eBay if they are any good or not which start around 15 upwards.
Resolution is offline  
Reply

Go Back   Alfa Romeo Forum > Supported Alfa Romeo Models > Technical & Vehicle Assistance > Alfa 159, Brera & 946 Spider

Tags
159 , clean , flaps , maf , swirl

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome