Brera 3.2 JTS Q4 SV 48,000 miles Timing Chain - Page 4 - Alfa Romeo Forum
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Originally Posted by IAMBRERA View Post
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...YtOsoMbhTLtHhQ

Can anyone ascertain why GM would specify in this news bullitin to use 6.7ltrs of oil to refill & Alfa Romeo specify 5.4ltrs for the same engine?
I do find my Digital oil level reader sometimes read one or two bars down but the dipstick ( although sometimes hard to get the right measure tells me it's at a correct oil level
I work on the principle that regular servicing (much more often oil changes than Alfa suggests) with oil better suited provides me with a car less liable to go wrong. I have been putting in 6ltrs at oil changes (every time with new filter) but this information is of concern. Not that GM have reduced the oil change volume but that Alfa;s recommended volume is significantly less.
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Service Manual2007 Captiva MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR

Me too SWQ4. Like JD commented on it's keeping me awake at the moment as you can see, still posting at this hour.

4-Sizewell, some more good info on the primary chain lower guide & oil pump what you already mention in an earlier post
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....
Question? Will I need to fit a check valve, to ensure nothing back feeds though the mechanical pump, when the electric one is running?
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Any fluid takes the path of least resistance, so as you rightly suspect if the engine pump is at 10psi at idle and your electric pump at 45, then sharing common galleries/pipe work for sure it will push back through to the sump, so yes fit a check valve on the supply from both pumps for what its worth.
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Anyone got a tensioner, old or new I can play about with to see if this is possible to fit a check valve to?
Just a thought on this, rather than modifying the tensioners with a check valve, it may be easier to drill/tap the exit oil supply hole to the tensioners, fit a mini check valve there e.g:http://www.okcc.com/pdf/tcv-1-web.pdf , then the recessed chambers I see behind the tensioners casings could become a tiny reservoir bank of pressure...there is also the worry that this would actually cause "pump up" this is something hydraulic tappets can suffer from, the bleed off tolerances may be a real pita to get right.

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Service Manual2007 Captiva ENGINE MECHANICAL - HFV6 3.2L

Interesting Photo that JB, what could be the cause of that gasket to perish? Could it be some sort of back pressure affect? Also on the left-hand-side of the damaged tensionor i can see the thread has worn away. ???? But that could of been caused some how by removal.

In the link above is some additional information on the oil pump mechanisim & lubrication system if it may help.
Yes back pressure is an interesting idea, could the piston get slammed back in its housing when accelerating from idle...could also be high oil pressure from cold oil/revs or from breakdown of the gasket as the revised version on the right has rubber seal.
I think the thread marks are just from a small miss-alignment when the owner tightened the bolt down and scored those marks.
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Originally Posted by IAMBRERA View Post
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&so...YtOsoMbhTLtHhQ

Can anyone ascertain why GM would specify in this news bullitin to use 6.7ltrs of oil to refill & Alfa Romeo specify 5.4ltrs for the same engine?
I do find my Digital oil level reader sometimes read one or two bars down but the dipstick ( although sometimes hard to get the right measure tells me it's at a correct oil level
All I can think of is a larger oil cooler and more pipework difference between vehicle design may even have different size sump?...or they just had a guess lol.
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I work on the principle that regular servicing (much more often oil changes than Alfa suggests) with oil better suited provides me with a car less liable to go wrong. I have been putting in 6ltrs at oil changes (every time with new filter) but this information is of concern. Not that GM have reduced the oil change volume but that Alfa;s recommended volume is significantly less.
It was recognized years ago, the Berties, Jiulias and Berlinas had large engine oil capacities; wide flat - ish sumps, with fins to assist in oil cooling.
This document quotes vehicles for the middle east also in this bulletin, where again average temperatures are higher. But they are reducing the capacity for fear of over fill. Fair enough, but even at the lower level, as you point out, it is greater than Alfa's. Thus, if the company policy on the Berties etc was valid, then a lower level; and by a considerable amount, is going to provide less than the optimum, that GM the manufacturers specify. It also means the concentration of pollutants is higher, increasing the factor for potential sludge build up by the same margin. If anyone can confirm the architecture of these engines are the same, then The GM figure is a valid bench mark.
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Any fluid takes the path of least resistance, so as you rightly suspect if the engine pump is at 10psi at idle and your electric pump at 45, then sharing common galleries/pipe work for sure it will push back through to the sump, so yes fit a check valve on the supply from both pumps for what its worth.
Just trying to keep up with the issues and good to see the response.On your first point, as I understand it, the crank shaft is at idle speed, but it is just not fast enough to fill all the galleries and maintain the pressure, faster than the bleed from them. It does not mean the oil pump is bleeding back; although still trying to ascertain if it does and by how much? That the oil pressure release valve is at an assumed 6 bar, then the pump must be able to sustain it, without bleeding back. When the pump rotor is picking up from the sump, ~ atmospheric, the outlet is discharging into the gallery; to the filter, at up to 6 bar. The intake chamber and the output chamber are positioned such that there is no direct path between the low pressure side and high. I'm just playing devils advocate to get to the truth; particularly as I need to buy the bits before I break into the system: this is one time exercise so it has to work! So I need challenges like this. "Proof is in the elimination of all other factors". So picking the wrong issue, is in itself a success as it eliminates it from the equation. Still doesn't confirm the truth or otherwise, so it may well be a check valve is needed. And thanks, now I know where to find them. Pumps in series 10 + 45 psi = 55 psi. In parallel; as these will be, 45 psi?

Just a thought on this, rather than modifying the tensioners with a check valve, it may be easier to drill/tap the exit oil supply hole to the tensioners, fit a mini check valve there e.g:http://www.okcc.com/pdf/tcv-1-web.pdf , then the recessed chambers I see behind the tensioners casings could become a tiny reservoir bank of pressure...there is also the worry that this would actually cause "pump up" this is something hydraulic tappets can suffer from, the bleed off tolerances may be a real pita to get right.

Nice one. Don't however see how it can exceed the supply pressure from the pumps, crank or electric? and the pressure from the tensioner should ensure that surely? Only allowing top - up pressure.


Yes back pressure is an interesting idea, could the piston get slammed back in its housing when accelerating from idle...could also be high oil pressure from cold oil/revs or from breakdown of the gasket as the revised version on the right has rubber seal.
I think the thread marks are just from a small miss-alignment when the owner tightened the bolt down and scored those marks.

Not seen this one yet.

All I can think of is a larger oil cooler and more pipework difference between vehicle design may even have different size sump?...or they just had a guess lol.
See Previous post.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sizewell[/QUOTE
Just trying to keep up with the issues and good to see the response.On your first point, as I understand it, the crank shaft is at idle speed, but it is just not fast enough to fill all the galleries and maintain the pressure, faster than the bleed from them. It does not mean the oil pump is bleeding back; although still trying to ascertain if it does and by how much?
I was referring to the pressure needed for the hydraulic tensioners possibly being too low at idle, not that there is bleed back, and also referring to a possible reason there are sprung loaded guides, could those springs be critical to idle tension, and so what if the springs go "soft".

Quote:
Originally Posted by sizewell[/QUOTE
That the oil pressure release valve is at an assumed 6 bar, then the pump must be able to sustain it, without bleeding back. When the pump rotor is picking up from the sump, ~ atmospheric, the outlet is discharging into the gallery; to the filter, at up to 6 bar. The intake chamber and the output chamber are positioned such that there is no direct path between the low pressure side and high. I'm just playing devils advocate to get to the truth; particularly as I need to buy the bits before I break into the system:
So yes agreed the possiblilty of bleed back is small by design with the tightly meching pump rotor, but this could still give you a false pressure reading when your setting up your electric pump, and better to over engineer the system with check valves on the supply of both pumps so you can be sure your pressure isn't bleeding back through either pump when they are running, just come down to belt n braces.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sizewell[/QUOTE
this is one time exercise so it has to work! So I need challenges like this. "Proof is in the elimination of all other factors". So picking the wrong issue, is in itself a success as it eliminates it from the equation. Still doesn't confirm the truth or otherwise, so it may well be a check valve is needed. And thanks, now I know where to find them. Pumps in series 10 + 45 psi = 55 psi. In parallel; as these will be, 45 psi?
no problem glad the link is of help and yes I totally understand the pumps are in parrallel.

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Originally Posted by sizewell[/QUOTE
Nice one. Don't however see how it can exceed the supply pressure from the pumps, crank or electric? and the pressure from the tensioner should ensure that surely? Only allowing top - up pressure.
Same principle as the pumps, series pressure build up in the reservior of the tensioner with the new check valve behind it. The result would be over tensioning of the chains if the bleed off value was not changed.

Sorry I'm not as articulate at explaining as you are but I'm trying.
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Just trying to keep up with the issues and good to see the response.On your first point, as I understand it, the crank shaft is at idle speed, but it is just not fast enough to fill all the galleries and maintain the pressure, faster than the bleed from them. It does not mean the oil pump is bleeding back; although still trying to ascertain if it does and by how much?
I was referring to the pressure needed for the hydraulic tensioners possibly being too low at idle, not that there is bleed back, and also referring to a possible reason there are sprung loaded guides, could those springs be critical to idle tension, and so what if the springs go "soft".


That the oil pressure release valve is at an assumed 6 bar, then the pump must be able to sustain it, without bleeding back. When the pump rotor is picking up from the sump, ~ atmospheric, the outlet is discharging into the gallery; to the filter, at up to 6 bar. The intake chamber and the output chamber are positioned such that there is no direct path between the low pressure side and high. I'm just playing devils advocate to get to the truth; particularly as I need to buy the bits before I break into the system:[/QUOTE]
So yes agreed the possiblilty of bleed back is small by design with the tightly meching pump rotor, but this could still give you a false pressure reading when your setting up your electric pump, and better to over engineer the system with check valves on the supply of both pumps so you can be sure your pressure isn't bleeding back through either pump when they are running, just come down to belt n braces.

this is one time exercise so it has to work! So I need challenges like this. "Proof is in the elimination of all other factors". So picking the wrong issue, is in itself a success as it eliminates it from the equation. Still doesn't confirm the truth or otherwise, so it may well be a check valve is needed. And thanks, now I know where to find them. Pumps in series 10 + 45 psi = 55 psi. In parallel; as these will be, 45 psi? [/QUOTE]
no problem glad the link is of help and yes I totally understand the pumps are in parrallel.


Nice one. Don't however see how it can exceed the supply pressure from the pumps, crank or electric? and the pressure from the tensioner should ensure that surely? Only allowing top - up pressure. [/QUOTE]
Same principle as the pumps, series pressure build up in the reservior of the tensioner with the new check valve behind it. The result would be over tensioning of the chains if the bleed off value was not changed.

Sorry I'm not as articulate at explaining as you are but I'm trying. [/QUOTE]

It's all fine to me. Is the Timing chain supposed to be lubricated by the tensioner through a valve at the back of the Nylon face, at the end of the tensioner piston? A picture I have shows a hole at the centre of the Nylon face? Is the tensioner bleed hole not a pressure valve spraying the chain with excess tensioner pressure, resulting in optimum pressure at all times; assuming the engine isn't starved of oil? There is so much that is unclear, but it's the most sensible place to do it!
I need an old "oil filter and oil cooler sump" for a template. I have abandoned the idea of tampering with the tensioner system, but want to make up a Two Port/Void Manifold, to sandwich between the block outlet boss for the oil feed to and from and the oil filter/oil cooler unit. I intend to pick up oil from behind the trivet/grid in the sump, through the sump wall to the a supplementary oil pump. But I want the manifold to look professional, possibly using a small manufacturing company to machine it. But, other than taking mine off and leaving the car standing naked while it is done, a scrap one would fit the bill.
If the oil pressure is low and these bleed holes are actually valves, they may not open to lubricate the chain. Pure hypothesis, as I just don't have the information to hand.
There is a little more involved with the manifold, but I will leave that out of this at the same time. I'm viewing this as a permanent solution for my car and naturally, those who want to keep their cars for a while yet may consider it a worthwhile exercise.
My PC keeps playing up. God knows how many times it has crashed when trying to post, so I'll get this off, more in hope than anything else.
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I was referring to the pressure needed for the hydraulic tensioners possibly being too low at idle, not that there is bleed back, and also referring to a possible reason there are sprung loaded guides, could those springs be critical to idle tension, and so what if the springs go "soft".


That the oil pressure release valve is at an assumed 6 bar, then the pump must be able to sustain it, without bleeding back. When the pump rotor is picking up from the sump, ~ atmospheric, the outlet is discharging into the gallery; to the filter, at up to 6 bar. The intake chamber and the output chamber are positioned such that there is no direct path between the low pressure side and high. I'm just playing devils advocate to get to the truth; particularly as I need to buy the bits before I break into the system:
So yes agreed the possiblilty of bleed back is small by design with the tightly meching pump rotor, but this could still give you a false pressure reading when your setting up your electric pump, and better to over engineer the system with check valves on the supply of both pumps so you can be sure your pressure isn't bleeding back through either pump when they are running, just come down to belt n braces.

this is one time exercise so it has to work! So I need challenges like this. "Proof is in the elimination of all other factors". So picking the wrong issue, is in itself a success as it eliminates it from the equation. Still doesn't confirm the truth or otherwise, so it may well be a check valve is needed. And thanks, now I know where to find them. Pumps in series 10 + 45 psi = 55 psi. In parallel; as these will be, 45 psi? [/QUOTE]
no problem glad the link is of help and yes I totally understand the pumps are in parallel.


Nice one. Don't however see how it can exceed the supply pressure from the pumps, crank or electric? and the pressure from the tensioner should ensure that surely? Only allowing top - up pressure. [/QUOTE]
Same principle as the pumps, series pressure build up in the reservior of the tensioner with the new check valve behind it. The result would be over tensioning of the chains if the bleed off value was not changed.

Sorry I'm not as articulate at explaining as you are but I'm trying. [/QUOTE]

It's all fine to me. Is the Timing chain supposed to be lubricated by the tensioner through a valve at the back of the Nylon face, at the end of the tensioner piston? A picture I have shows a hole at the centre of the Nylon face? Is the tensioner bleed hole not a pressure valve spraying the chain with excess tensioner pressure, resulting in optimum pressure at all times; assuming the engine isn't starved of oil? There is so much that is unclear, but it's the most sensible place to do it!
I need an old "oil filter and oil cooler sump" for a template. I have abandoned the idea of tampering with the tensioner system, but want to make up a Two Port/Void Manifold, to sandwich between the block outlet boss for the oil feed to and from and the oil filter/oil cooler unit. I intend to pick up oil from behind the trivet/grid in the sump, through the sump wall to the a supplementary oil pump. But I want the manifold to look professional, possibly using a small manufacturing company to machine it. But, other than taking mine off and leaving the car standing naked while it is done, a scrap one would fit the bill.
If the oil pressure is low and these bleed holes are actually valves, they may not open to lubricate the chain. Pure hypothesis, as I just don't have the information to hand.
There is a little more involved with the manifold, but I will leave that out of this at the same time. I'm viewing this as a permanent solution for my car and naturally, those who want to keep their cars for a while yet may consider it a worthwhile exercise.
My PC keeps playing up. God knows how many times it has crashed when trying to post, so I'll get this off, more in hope than anything else.
Kind Regards,[/QUOTE]

Port "A" of the manifold will carry the filtered, cooled oil away from the Oil filter/Oil cooler unit, into the galleries - straight through.
Port "B" of the manifold will take the oil from the engine oil pump and then to the input to the Oil filter/Oil cooler. Before it enters, mounted on or within the manifold superstructure will be a tapping point for an adjustable SSPS. It will then go to a "Check Valve fitted before the oil enters the second "B" void.
A second tapping into "Void B", will bring oil from the externally mounted "Electric Oil Pump", which also enters from behind a check valve.
Involved in the control of the pump is the Solid State Pressure Switch; SSPS, which has an adjustable pressure for both set and re-set. Also a timer to allow the pump to continue to run for the period where the oil pressure from the engine oil pump has built up, simply because it has no bleed off and thus opens the check valve, only for the pressure to drop again. This would cause the electric pump to start/stop, so the delay will counter this.
The feed to the electric pump from the sump will be kept as low as possible; below oil level, if at all possible to ensure the pump is always "Wet". It may then be possible, by using high grade flexible hoses to remotely mount the pump in a more accessible place.
Comments please; what am I missing? It should work, but I'd be interested to know why it would not?
Kind regards,
Once again trying to get this off before the PC crashes again.
Why should I want to do this? If the mountain won't come to Mohamed, Mohamed must go to the mountain! "Physician Heal thyself". Never thought I could ever use those quotes - ever.
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Quote:
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It's all fine to me. Is the Timing chain supposed to be lubricated by the tensioner through a valve at the back of the Nylon face, at the end of the tensioner piston? A picture I have shows a hole at the centre of the Nylon face? Is the tensioner bleed hole not a pressure valve spraying the chain with excess tensioner pressure, resulting in optimum pressure at all times; assuming the engine isn't starved of oil? There is so much that is unclear, but it's the most sensible place to do it!
Yes this seams the most obvious reason for the holes, I've had a look at the service manual linked in an earlier post, I can see that the nylon guides for the primary chain has a hole in each, but I can't see any holes in the nylon guides for the secondary chains which is strange, so I don't know how the secondarys are oiled...may be from "splash" from the primary?
Quote:
Originally Posted by sizewell View Post
I need an old "oil filter and oil cooler sump" for a template. I have abandoned the idea of tampering with the tensioner system, but want to make up a Two Port/Void Manifold, to sandwich between the block outlet boss for the oil feed to and from and the oil filter/oil cooler unit. I intend to pick up oil from behind the trivet/grid in the sump, through the sump wall to the a supplementary oil pump. But I want the manifold to look professional, possibly using a small manufacturing company to machine it. But, other than taking mine off and leaving the car standing naked while it is done, a scrap one would fit the bill.
You could use an oil filter sandwich plate to tap into the oil feed to the oil cooler, or just "tee" into the hose that goes to the oil cooler to add the supply of your secondary pump.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sizewell View Post
If the oil pressure is low and these bleed holes are actually valves, they may not open to lubricate the chain. Pure hypothesis, as I just don't have the information to hand.
Yes makes sense that those holes rely on the nylon guide hole too, and wear could close it up...
Quote:
Originally Posted by sizewell View Post
There is a little more involved with the manifold, but I will leave that out of this at the same time. I'm viewing this as a permanent solution for my car and naturally, those who want to keep their cars for a while yet may consider it a worthwhile exercise.

Port "A" of the manifold will carry the filtered, cooled oil away from the Oil filter/Oil cooler unit, into the galleries - straight through.
Port "B" of the manifold will take the oil from the engine oil pump and then to the input to the Oil filter/Oil cooler. Before it enters, mounted on or within the manifold superstructure will be a tapping point for an adjustable SSPS. It will then go to a "Check Valve fitted before the oil enters the second "B" void.
A second tapping into "Void B", will bring oil from the externally mounted "Electric Oil Pump", which also enters from behind a check valve.
Involved in the control of the pump is the Solid State Pressure Switch; SSPS, which has an adjustable pressure for both set and re-set. Also a timer to allow the pump to continue to run for the period where the oil pressure from the engine oil pump has built up, simply because it has no bleed off and thus opens the check valve, only for the pressure to drop again. This would cause the electric pump to start/stop, so the delay will counter this.
The feed to the electric pump from the sump will be kept as low as possible; below oil level, if at all possible to ensure the pump is always "Wet". It may then be possible, by using high grade flexible hoses to remotely mount the pump in a more accessible place.
Comments please; what am I missing? It should work, but I'd be interested to know why it would not?
Kind regards,
Once again trying to get this off before the PC crashes again.
Why should I want to do this? If the mountain won't come to Mohamed, Mohamed must go to the mountain! "Physician Heal thyself". Never thought I could ever use those quotes - ever.
Yes all sounds fine and well planned, thats quite a bit of work, again your "port A" "port B" manifold sounds like an oil filter sandwich plate is what your describing.

Its crossed my mind, have you concidered going all electric on the oil system pump? I've looked into how this could be done in practice and it involves some mods to the mechanical pump to "diss engage it" utilize the pumps pickup...block some holes...and go all electric and vary the oil pressure between the rpm window of your choice?
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Is there an oil cooler with pipes to "tap into"?...anyway I've done a "schematic" with an oil cooler and thermostat added and location of check valves etc, they say a picture speaks a thousand words...
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Is there an oil cooler with pipes to "tap into"?...anyway I've done a "schematic" with an oil cooler and thermostat added and location of check valves etc, they say a picture speaks a thousand words...
JB, thanks for this. Go wholly Electric? Not yet. I want to keep everything simple without modifying the basic functionality of the engine, as is. By fitting the manifold, for want of a better word, I can continue to use the existing Oil filter and cooler. The S.S.P.S. can be set up using the oil pressure sender/gauge connected with a "T" at the oil pressure switch location; particularly accurately if I can get my mittens on a calibrated gauge, or a Beamex, pressure tester. The S.S.P.S. is adjusted by small potentiometers on the body. It is fair to say, if I can mount remotely, where accessibility is easy, then having everything in the same place will make it easier to calibrate and fault find, should their be a failure. Having just had the engine work completed, I don't want to tear it apart, not least because of the cost; I don't have the facilities or the tools to do it myself. Plus by keeping the mechanical as the principal pump and supplementing it at low pressure, should the electric pump fail, I'm in no worse position than I am now. I'd like to find a pump capable of more than 45 psi, but in fairness it is probably about right at this moment because with engine wear at 100k; I don't as yet know what the actual high rev oil pressure is.
It is now down to sourcing the bits. I shall be taking the sump off some time soon, just as a de-sludging exercise, given it has never been removed in its life. Whilst it is off, I shall do the initial work for picking up the oil feed for the electric pump.
It's going to be a few weeks as she is away having the Powerflex bushes and new differential bushes fitted, and as reasonable as Paul is, I have been bleeding money just to get "legendary clunk sorted".
That's being done next week and he has just finished doing post summer work on my G.T.V, prior to being tucked up in bed for the winter.
Anyway, this has been a valuable exercise and loads of useful info has come out of it. Nothing would change if we had to rely on ALFA: they have moved on, they are interested in their next generation; the 159 is history, but they still don't mind fleecing us for parts. I just want them to stop wearing out so fast.
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Yes this seams the most obvious reason for the holes, I've had a look at the service manual linked in an earlier post, I can see that the nylon guides for the primary chain has a hole in each, but I can't see any holes in the nylon guides for the secondary chains which is strange, so I don't know how the secondarys are oiled...may be from "splash" from the primary?

You could use an oil filter sandwich plate to tap into the oil feed to the oil cooler, or just "tee" into the hose that goes to the oil cooler to add the supply of your secondary pump.

Yes makes sense that those holes rely on the nylon guide hole too, and wear could close it up...

Yes all sounds fine and well planned, thats quite a bit of work, again your "port A" "port B" manifold sounds like an oil filter sandwich plate is what your describing.

Its crossed my mind, have you concidered going all electric on the oil system pump? I've looked into how this could be done in practice and it involves some mods to the mechanical pump to "diss engage it" utilize the pumps pickup...block some holes...and go all electric and vary the oil pressure between the rpm window of your choice?
JB, IAMBRERA,
Some further information on lubrication.
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It's going to be a few weeks as she is away having the Powerflex bushes and new differential bushes fitted
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JB, IAMBRERA,
Some further information on lubrication.
Sizewell i'm unable to view your post, my device is moving me to a download manager. Can you copy and paste some of the info?
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What's this - have you been 'turned'?
No Ken, Bushes where kindly produced on request. ALFA won't supply the Bush without the arm, so Powerflex offered to make me some, for the trailing arms. Twice removed from Alloy Diffs/gearboxes and engines and at a fraction of the cost of the arm; I can wreck the polys 10 times over, for both arms for the cost of one OEM. Want to by a slightly soiled new nearside one? Going on ebay.
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Sizewell i'm unable to view your post, my device is moving me to a download manager. Can you copy and paste some of the info?
Bear with me.
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Sizewell i'm unable to view your post, my device is moving me to a download manager. Can you copy and paste some of the info?
I am having trouble loading the pictures, may take me years!!!! So here below is an answer the question JB posed:- "How are the upper chains lubricated. {7} in the text refers to the oil drain on the control valve mechanism for the cam shaft advance/retard. Will keep trying on the pictures.

The continuous variable timing system controls and alters the timing in relation to the different operating conditions, to ensure optimum engine behavior in terms of an increased performance and reduction in consumption and emissions.
Basically the advantages should not be seen in terms of a simple increase in maximum torque and maximum power, but more as a gain in powerfulness, fullness and prompt responsiveness throughout the entire operating speed and load range.
There are four transformers for this engine, one for each camshaft; they are capable of altering the cam angle during the operation of the engine based on usage conditions.
There are therefore four control solenoid valves, which the engine management control unit regulates the flow of oil inside the actuator compartments to allow the rotation of the camshafts in relation to the gears controlled by the secondary timing chains.
The phase transformers allow the continuous rotation of the camshafts up to 50 degrees angle. The engine management control unit determines and controls the position of the cam through sensors on the camshafts and the crankshaft.
The continuously variable valve timing can only follow the signal from the ECU faithfully if it can quickly discharge oil from the camshaft advance/retard compartments.
It cannot return oil to the system fast enough and indeed if it were to do so, could result in air locks, causing inaccuracies in the camshaft advance/retard timing.
So it quickly discharges it through the wide Oil Drain {7}.
It is this drainage which is constantly lubricating the upper timing chains and all four camshaft sprockets.
This also lubricates the upper guides and tensioners. Because this discharge oil is continuously replenished, the timing of the camshafts remain accurate, ad infinitum. Because the oil is continuously being replenished, it is unlikely the system suffers from sludging.
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File Type: xls Tensioners.xls (136.0 KB, 14 views)
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No Ken, Bushes where kindly produced on request. ALFA won't supply the Bush without the arm, so Powerflex offered to make me some, for the trailing arms. Twice removed from Alloy Diffs/gearboxes and engines and at a fraction of the cost of the arm; I can wreck the polys 10 times over, for both arms for the cost of one OEM. Want to by a slightly soiled new nearside one? Going on ebay.
kind regards
I fully understand your dilemma. I had similar problems with Alfa 166 suspension parts, prompting me to do my own thing - http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...on-bushes.html (166 rear suspension bushes)
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JB, IAMBRERA,
Some further information on lubrication.
Is it only IABRERA having trouble with these attachments? I sent it to my self to confirm it worked, am on windows 10 but pasted diagrams on XL which I never have trouble with normally.
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JB, thanks for this. Go wholly Electric? Not yet. I want to keep everything simple without modifying the basic functionality of the engine, as is. By fitting the manifold, for want of a better word, I can continue to use the existing Oil filter and cooler. The S.S.P.S. can be set up using the oil pressure sender/gauge connected with a "T" at the oil pressure switch location; particularly accurately if I can get my mittens on a calibrated gauge, or a Beamex, pressure tester. The S.S.P.S. is adjusted by small potentiometers on the body. It is fair to say, if I can mount remotely, where accessibility is easy, then having everything in the same place will make it easier to calibrate and fault find, should their be a failure. Having just had the engine work completed, I don't want to tear it apart, not least because of the cost; I don't have the facilities or the tools to do it myself. Plus by keeping the mechanical as the principal pump and supplementing it at low pressure, should the electric pump fail, I'm in no worse position than I am now. I'd like to find a pump capable of more than 45 psi, but in fairness it is probably about right at this moment because with engine wear at 100k; I don't as yet know what the actual high rev oil pressure is.
It is now down to sourcing the bits. I shall be taking the sump off some time soon, just as a de-sludging exercise, given it has never been removed in its life. Whilst it is off, I shall do the initial work for picking up the oil feed for the electric pump.
It's going to be a few weeks as she is away having the Powerflex bushes and new differential bushes fitted, and as reasonable as Paul is, I have been bleeding money just to get "legendary clunk sorted".
That's being done next week and he has just finished doing post summer work on my G.T.V, prior to being tucked up in bed for the winter.
Anyway, this has been a valuable exercise and loads of useful info has come out of it. Nothing would change if we had to rely on ALFA: they have moved on, they are interested in their next generation; the 159 is history, but they still don't mind fleecing us for parts. I just want them to stop wearing out so fast.
Kind Regards,
no problem glad to be of assistance
Yep sounds like you got your hands full there with those cars and running repairs, hope the PF bushes work out well, yes I remember reading anout your "clonk" around here before, so yes all in good time, the electric oiler can be a nice winter project.

On the max pressure quandary, rule of thumb is 10 psi/1000 rpm, and my gut feeling is you'l see about 12 gpm at maximum revs, so these figures should help with your calculations.

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JB, IAMBRERA,
Some further information on lubrication.
Yes very interesting so thats how its lubed, I feel I should know more about my own engine after this little exercise!

Keep us posted on progress as it happens.
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Samsung tablet i'm on. I'm sure there's away to view this, i'll keep trying
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^@ no grip as you have hands on experience, out of interest what is the gasket like that seals the tensioners to the block/oil gallery, could it be "pushed out" the way this example pick I've attached shows?
I'm just wondering if the cold oil/pressure scenario could "blow" the seal giving the slack tension results...
The gasket is a heavy duty paper/plastic type that comes with the new tensioner. If replaced it would be difficult to damage it. Even if reused it is a very durable gasket so would still be quite difficult to damage. Not sure where that rubber seal is located and don't recall it from my rebuild although I didn't remove the secondary tensioners since I reused them?
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The gasket is a heavy duty paper/plastic type that comes with the new tensioner. If replaced it would be difficult to damage it. Even if reused it is a very durable gasket so would still be quite difficult to damage. Not sure where that rubber seal is located and don't recall it from my rebuild although I didn't remove the secondary tensioners since I reused them?
ok thanks for the update, yeah I know it was a long shot, but you never know, and with everything covered in oil anyway a weeping gasket may get missed. We now also know the primary chain relies on tiny oiling holes under alot of back pressure in those tensioners so this makes those gaskets doubly important
Those pictures are not from this V6 engine but just demonstrated a gasket failure and rubber seal solution taken to solve that problem.

On a different note...
Has anyone considered Nitriding the chains and sprockets? I've had crankshafts done in the past and just crossed my mind, and after a quick search, sure enough its possible with chains/sprockets...Claims of 50% longer "life" and 20% less friction are bantered about on these websites, could be an interesting Option for the re-builders to offer?
Nitriding - hard surfaces for more power for sprockets...
: TRITAN - iwis motorsysteme Tritan New Coating Technology for Timing Chain Pins...
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Two Different Profile Oil Seal Seats?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbsmith1 View Post
^@ no grip as you have hands on experience, out of interest what is the gasket like that seals the tensioners to the block/oil gallery, could it be "pushed out" the way this example pick I've attached shows?
I'm just wondering if the cold oil/pressure scenario could "blow" the seal giving the slack tension results...
I have been looking at the two pictures you included with your post. The faulty one, which appears to have "Blown", has; to my eyes a wide concave, but shallow rim within which the gasket was supposed to sit.
The new one has a channel, within which a "O" ring type seal sits and is compressed into the channel to make the seal. The old one looks; because the concave surface is so shallow, as if when it was fitted, the gasket had shifted over the rim, prior to being torqued down. This would result in the gasket being nipped by the lip of the rim. It probably was done in factory assembly. Overtime, torque from the mounting bolts and temperature would degrade the material, such that the oil pressure would finally cause a rupture. The specifications of the tensioner system states the seals are to ensure the tensioners retain oil and thus maintain pressure on the chains when starting the engine. If this gasket fails, perhaps all the oil has wept away and thus enough slack existed when starting the engine, to cause it to jump the sprocket?
This is only based on poor eyesight, viewing what look like two different profile tensioner oil seal seats. If this is the case, your new one is a later edition, modified for what must have been a problem initially. So are there some rogue parts out there. It's worth keeping a keen eye on buying replacement parts, it this is the case.
Kind regards,
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