A little cough... - Page 3 - Alfa Romeo Forum
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Guys, when you say it's a new car, do you find its got a more constant acceleration curve? Or is it power? Or is it something else....I'm wondering if an 'egr delete' gives the same results. Or is it the ease of fixing and cost of doing it which sold you both.. or....thanks for humouring me....
I find it hard to read if you had EGR blanked before the "simultator" was mounted when talking about changed car, or was the simulator installed at same point as blankingplate & then you experience a "new car"? :-)
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Guys, when you say it's a new car, do you find its got a more constant acceleration curve? Or is it power? Or is it something else....I'm wondering if an 'egr delete' gives the same results. Or is it the ease of fixing and cost of doing it which sold you both.. or....thanks for humouring me....
Fitting the EGR simulator is just like having a software delete, but so much cheaper, plus it only takes 10 minutes to fit. The full EGR blanking plate is fitted at the same time.
For myself, the drivability of the car has greatly improved. Without the stutter I you can really make use of all the low down torque and I find that I'm shifting into high gear much earlier.
The car is just so much smoother to drive, and no tip toeing around the stutter that I used to have. The end to recycled soot is an added bonus.
You only need to fit the EGR simulator if you want a full EGR delete or have a stutter that you can't fix, or both
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Fitting the EGR simulator is just like having a software delete, but so much cheaper, plus it only takes 10 minutes to fit. The full EGR blanking plate is fitted at the same time.
For myself, the drivability of the car has greatly improved. Without the stutter I you can really make use of all the low down torque and I find that I'm shifting into high gear much earlier.
The car is just so much smoother to drive, and no tip toeing around the stutter that I used to have. The end to recycled soot is an added bonus.
You only need to fit the EGR simulator if you want a full EGR delete or have a stutter that you can't fix, or both
On an unmodified car with working EGR, the EGR is closed when you "make use of all the low down torque"...So i really dont understand how that should make a difference? Same goes for shifting into high much earlier, as EGR only opens on light/partial loads?

Totally agree about the health-state of engine when blanked, but is there any change of way engine runs, (Simulator must alter the signal for amount of air going to the ECU ), comparing to this simulator mounted & just blankingplate(s)....I know EML-light will come on, but car will still run with full power.
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On an unmodified car with working EGR, the EGR is closed when you "make use of all the low down torque"...So i really dont understand how that should make a difference? Same goes for shifting into high much earlier, as EGR only opens on light/partial loads?

Totally agree about the health-state of engine when blanked, but is there any change of way engine runs, (Simulator must alter the signal for amount of air going to the ECU ), comparing to this simulator mounted & just blankingplate(s)....I know EML-light will come on, but car will still run with full power.
Yes, if the EGR system is all working correctly and the fuel mapping is balanced and within spec, then fitting an EGR blanking plate should not make any difference. However this is an economical solution that may fix many diesel cars that have a stutter. My car had a new EGR fitted and within 5,000km, the stutter was back. No matter what I tried, I couldn't get rid of it. Personally, I think that the parameters to inputs in the fuel map are set to tight and that the car cannot "learn" or correct itself to avoid the stutter. I admit that I don't fully understand how the inputs to the ECU all work and are balanced etc, but what I do know is that the EGR simulator and full blanking plate has cured the stutter in my car 100%.

Previously the stutter would appear between light and moderate throttle. So previously if you drove very lightly, no stutter. If you pushed the car hard, no stutter. But that light to moderate throttle position that is used so often would cause lot's of stuttering. EG. Accelerating away from round about, moderate throttle while accelerating in traffic, and cruising in 6th gear at lower revs. So I think the stutter is when the EGR is at partial open. Not fully closed or fully open. Unfortunately, I think that the EGR partial opening scenario happens quite often. So fixing this issue makes the car so much more pleasant to drive. If you are after a horsepower or torque increase, then I would expect the EGR simulator would make very little or no difference. But what it does do is allow you to use what is already there in a progressive way.

I do not know, but this is how I suspect that the EGR simulator works. The ECU is expecting a pre-dertimined additional volume of air based on the % EGR opening. The MAF sensor measures the volume of air coming from the air box and the MAP sensors measure manifold pressure after the EGR addition. If the ECU gets and imbalance between what it is expecting as a MAP reading based on various inputs and the theoretical volume of air from the EGR, I think this is what causes the stutter. So I suspect that what the EGR simulator does is adjust the volume of air signal from the MAF sensor by what it would normally expect from the EGR input, thereby eliminating the imbalance. I may have the logic totally wrong, however I suspect that I'm not far away. Maybe there is someone else on the forum who does actually know how the sensors and EGR system all links together, but what I do know that it has fixed the stutter in my car.

It may not fix everyones stutter issues as there maybe other forces at play, but all I can offer is that it worked for me.
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Yes, if the EGR system is all working correctly and the fuel mapping is balanced and within spec, then fitting an EGR blanking plate should not make any difference. However this is an economical solution that may fix many diesel cars that have a stutter. My car had a new EGR fitted and within 5,000km, the stutter was back. No matter what I tried, I couldn't get rid of it. Personally, I think that the parameters to inputs in the fuel map are set to tight and that the car cannot "learn" or correct itself to avoid the stutter. I admit that I don't fully understand how the inputs to the ECU all work and are balanced etc, but what I do know is that the EGR simulator and full blanking plate has cured the stutter in my car 100%.

Previously the stutter would appear between light and moderate throttle. So previously if you drove very lightly, no stutter. If you pushed the car hard, no stutter. But that light to moderate throttle position that is used so often would cause lot's of stuttering. EG. Accelerating away from round about, moderate throttle while accelerating in traffic, and cruising in 6th gear at lower revs. So I think the stutter is when the EGR is at partial open. Not fully closed or fully open. Unfortunately, I think that the EGR partial opening scenario happens quite often. So fixing this issue makes the car so much more pleasant to drive. If you are after a horsepower or torque increase, then I would expect the EGR simulator would make very little or no difference. But what it does do is allow you to use what is already there in a progressive way.

I do not know, but this is how I suspect that the EGR simulator works. The ECU is expecting a pre-dertimined additional volume of air based on the % EGR opening. The MAF sensor measures the volume of air coming from the air box and the MAP sensors measure manifold pressure after the EGR addition. If the ECU gets and imbalance between what it is expecting as a MAP reading based on various inputs and the theoretical volume of air from the EGR, I think this is what causes the stutter. So I suspect that what the EGR simulator does is adjust the volume of air signal from the MAF sensor by what it would normally expect from the EGR input, thereby eliminating the imbalance. I may have the logic totally wrong, however I suspect that I'm not far away. Maybe there is someone else on the forum who does actually know how the sensors and EGR system all links together, but what I do know that it has fixed the stutter in my car.

It may not fix everyones stutter issues as there maybe other forces at play, but all I can offer is that it worked for me.
We totally agree on above.... I have a blanking-plate on mine & live with the EML-light in dash..Which shouldnt affect driveability...BUT there might be an issue with the surplus of air going through the MAF compared to what TMAP measures, which screws up the where on map ECU think it should be...

It COULD be that when all well with EGR, the ECU "trusts" TMAP more & give a more correct map than if EGR has been deemed faulty.

Thanks for your reply :-)
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Hi Chip

I see Brenton has responded to your queries and I agree with what he's said so nothing much to add. So, I'll just clarify the state of my 159 JTD before fitting the gadget and what work I did when fitting:

Before:

No modifications to the car at all that are relevant to this modification. The car stuttered around 1500-2000 RPM when applying light throttle. Typical scenario would be cruising along in a 60kmh zone and it jack-rabbiting down the road, even on cruise control.

Modification:

Pre-fitted the electronic simulator and checked pin voltage as per instructions. Everything checked out so I proceeded with the mechanical items. I fitted the 2 gaskets and metal blanking plate to the underside of the EGR housing. These were part of the simulator kit. I then fitted the electronic simulator as per the instructions and tested again, all clear.

I took it for a quick drive immediately and a longer drive the following morning. I have since been out again and on all 3 occasions the car runs as if it were new. To me, after driving it with this cough, driving it like it was new is a HUGE improvement. This is what I mean by it feeling like a new car. Everything is more smooth, the gear changes are smoother, the engine is slightly quieter, cold starts are much improved and cold idling is constant and smooth with no misfires or coughs. I used to get blue smoke on start up and now there is none. The heavy smell of unburnt diesel is also now gone.

I can't explain all of the changes Chip. I can only describe the improvements. However, with 100% certainty, this has fixed the problem.

I hope this helps clarify what I did to cure this particular problem

Cheers
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Thanks for your thoughts guys, this definitely is a simpler fix than any software changes etc.. I'm still exploring taking my ecu with me to the UK and let Ned at autolusso have a go at it. I think the next step is the dpf removal. It's just just such an expensive proposition here in Aus. Just to connect a pc is going to cost $1200. Then do the delete. But in the UK it seems like it'll cost only a couple of hundred. When I've got some prices I'll post it. But I've gotta get info on the ecu software version....when my odb interfaces arrive and it all talks to MES...
Well thats the current plan anyway...

Thanks again guys.
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Hi Chip

I see Brenton has responded to your queries and I agree with what he's said so nothing much to add. So, I'll just clarify the state of my 159 JTD before fitting the gadget and what work I did when fitting:

Before:

No modifications to the car at all that are relevant to this modification. The car stuttered around 1500-2000 RPM when applying light throttle. Typical scenario would be cruising along in a 60kmh zone and it jack-rabbiting down the road, even on cruise control.

Modification:

Pre-fitted the electronic simulator and checked pin voltage as per instructions. Everything checked out so I proceeded with the mechanical items. I fitted the 2 gaskets and metal blanking plate to the underside of the EGR housing. These were part of the simulator kit. I then fitted the electronic simulator as per the instructions and tested again, all clear.

I took it for a quick drive immediately and a longer drive the following morning. I have since been out again and on all 3 occasions the car runs as if it were new. To me, after driving it with this cough, driving it like it was new is a HUGE improvement. This is what I mean by it feeling like a new car. Everything is more smooth, the gear changes are smoother, the engine is slightly quieter, cold starts are much improved and cold idling is constant and smooth with no misfires or coughs. I used to get blue smoke on start up and now there is none. The heavy smell of unburnt diesel is also now gone.

I can't explain all of the changes Chip. I can only describe the improvements. However, with 100% certainty, this has fixed the problem.

I hope this helps clarify what I did to cure this particular problem

Cheers
Thanks a lot :-) Unfortunately none of you has tried if the blankingplates alone cures your stutter & the simulator only plays a factor in keeping the EML-light away..I already has a dongle to that, just works another way & only works 99% of the time...
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Thanks a lot :-) Unfortunately none of you has tried if the blankingplates alone cures your stutter & the simulator only plays a factor in keeping the EML-light away..I already has a dongle to that, just works another way & only works 99% of the time...
Hi Chip

It didn't occur to me to try the blanking plate without the simulator. I would assume that the ECU will cry foul and turn my dashboard into a Christmas tree. Also, given that the kit cost around $110 and was purchased from Poland, the gasket is worth about $0.50 and I can pick one up from Supercheap Auto so it just didn't make sense for me to not fit the expensive bit.

I suppose you could try it out if you take the existing one out and make a template of the outside profile and the fixing holes (minus the big hole in the middle of course) but I'm fairly certain it will trip some errors. It's a cheap exercise though and shouldn't take more than an hour to fit, try and remove if it doesn't work.

Another faultless drive to work today. I'm going to reset the trip meter and see if the economy has improved. I run around 9.5 l/100km average on a trip of over 1000km but it feels that motorway cruising is more efficient. I can't back that up with anything factual so I'll see what the trip says after another 3-500km.

Happy days!
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I ran my 147 with the EGR fully blanked for a few weeks. The car ran well but of course the MCSF light was on. Then I went and had it mapped out by Autolusso - a bit expensive for just turning a light off. Except it doesn't just do that, it changes the fuelling to use the unexpectedly unadulterated air. The difference was obvious the moment I pulled away. Smooth, progressive and more power right from tickover up to the point where the turbo begins to boost. I had deleted my swirls too. Egr deliberately reduces efficiency at low revs, this map puts it back. It's possible the cheater does similar.
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So i have stuttering. I have alot of regens.no power in hills.and poor start.. And i was thinking about egr and dpf delete. is it the same As what you mentioned? I mean same results? It will only cost me 70 usd to do this. Should i go for it?
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So i have stuttering. I have alot of regens.no power in hills.and poor start.. And i was thinking about egr and dpf delete. is it the same As what you mentioned? I mean same results? It will only cost me 70 usd to do this. Should i go for it?
Hi AlfaMorocco

I believe we have been discussing 2 options here. One is the EGR/DPF delete and feedback from Aus is that it's around $1200 to have that done. In the UK it seems to be more reasonable however $US70 sounds very cheap IMHO and I wonder what work would be done for that.

The other option which is the one I have opted for after 2-3 years of having this issue was to purchase the EGR simulator. With the information I have from Australia it was by far the more viable option for me personally. It is easily reversed (not so with the EGR/DPF delete) and cost me $AU 110 approx plus about an hour of my time.

I hope that helps but there are more informed people than me on this forum and I'm sure they will comment soon enough.
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Hey britwiss.thanks for your answer.

Im from morocco and it's cheap to fix cars.(not always) some guys ask for (1500 Mad) 150 usd for that work. So the mechanic told me he will delet them(egr dpf) in ECU. And he will drill some holes in Dpf.i can ask him to remove it but that will cost me more(still i think it's going to be cheap)

He did the work in alot of cars (VW. Alfa. peugeot...)

And about the second option. Getting something from Internet will cost me more (country tax and stuff)

so i just want to enjoy my alfa for the first time. It's been 4weeks now and always hill problem.
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I ran my 147 with the EGR fully blanked for a few weeks. The car ran well but of course the MCSF light was on. Then I went and had it mapped out by Autolusso - a bit expensive for just turning a light off. Except it doesn't just do that, it changes the fuelling to use the unexpectedly unadulterated air. The difference was obvious the moment I pulled away. Smooth, progressive and more power right from tickover up to the point where the turbo begins to boost. I had deleted my swirls too. Egr deliberately reduces efficiency at low revs, this map puts it back. It's possible the cheater does similar.
Halftone: Unfortunately the simulator would set the MIL-lamp if it would tell the true amount of air..As this is exactly what turns the MIL-lamp on, due to no air going through a blanked EGR, hence ECU detecting something wrong..

What the simumlator does is to decrease the airflowsignal from the MAF to the ECU when there´s a signal from the ECU to the EGR, asking it to open. (+ offcourse some load/low impedance in the sim-interface for EGR, to emulate the missing EGR so not to throw up faultcode for open wiring to it)
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Right, well I am struggling to grok quite how MAP, MAF, EGR values all inter-relate. I just don't know enough here.

Autolusso will map out the EGR on ECU's sent by post, if it helps, for 150GBP + return postage.
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Guys, when you say it's a new car, do you find its got a more constant acceleration curve? Or is it power? Or is it something else....I'm wondering if an 'egr delete' gives the same results. Or is it the ease of fixing and cost of doing it which sold you both.. or....thanks for humouring me....
The acceleration below 2,000 rpm is noticeably improved. The essentials are that the EGR takes the exhaust gas off before the turbo, so in most running modes, the turbo is has less gas running through it. When you put your foot on the throttle, the EGR will close, but the effect is not immediate, so it takes longer for the turbo to produce full power....felt as turbo lag, this is even more pronounced when you have a leaky EGR!

As far as I am aware the car doesn't actually think you need all the power til you hit 2,000rpm, as such it is open below this value

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The acceleration below 2,000 rpm is noticeably improved. The essentials are that the EGR takes the exhaust gas off before the turbo, so in most running modes, the turbo is has less gas running through it. When you put your foot on the throttle, the EGR will close, but the effect is not immediate, so it takes longer for the turbo to produce full power....felt as turbo lag, this is even more pronounced when you have a leaky EGR!

As far as I am aware the car doesn't actually think you need all the power til you hit 2,000rpm, as such it is open below this value
But still....noone has tried to put in a blankingplate & drive with that alone before mounting the "simulator"?
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But still....noone has tried to put in a blankingplate & drive with that alone before mounting the "simulator"?
You mean compare the the simulator with no simulator? Plenty have had just the blanking plate.


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You mean compare the the simulator with no simulator? Plenty have had just the blanking plate.


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Yes..But..Does the altered signal from MAF, which means ECU doesnt throw fault-codes..Makes the ECU run i a more strictly controled loop, with sweeter engineculture as a result, or is only diff. That ECU-lamp stays off. (Which i have a dongle to take care off doesnt show up )
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Hi all

I reset Trip A last week and have done around 600km since. Before I reset the trip, Trip B was at 9.4 L/100km. I checked Trip A this morning and it's sitting at 8.8 L/100km. Given how incredibly smooth motorway driving is now I'm not really surprised. About a 6% increase in economy! I asked the missus to drive for about 30km on the weekend and although she doesn't drive it often, her main impression was that the low RPM power delivery is more responsive and even.

I'm so relieved and driving the 159 is such a pleasure now.
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Hi all

I reset Trip A last week and have done around 600km since. Before I reset the trip, Trip B was at 9.4 L/100km. I checked Trip A this morning and it's sitting at 8.8 L/100km. Given how incredibly smooth motorway driving is now I'm not really surprised. About a 6% increase in economy! I asked the missus to drive for about 30km on the weekend and although she doesn't drive it often, her main impression was that the low RPM power delivery is more responsive and even.

I'm so relieved and driving the 159 is such a pleasure now.
That's great news.

Mine is the 1.9L and the economy now sits at 6.9L/100km. No complaints here.
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But still....noone has tried to put in a blankingplate & drive with that alone before mounting the "simulator"?
You mean compare the the simulator with no simulator? Plenty have had just the blanking plate.
I'm testing this for you as we speak.


So I had the `little cough problem` since +- 10 days. Especially when the engine is cold, around 1800 - 2000 rpm, and pushing the pedal just a few mm down. Resulting in the boostpressure to drop to zero. When giving a little more gas, there is a delay followed by a hikkup, afterwards things are normal again.

I had no issues starting though. What I did see was a 13% milage increasement over these days. I keep track of my fuelings: https://www.spritmonitor.de/en/detail/746178.html

First I thought it had something to do with my new tires (the milage increasement), but I couldn't ignore those `coughs`, so it had to be EGR related.

I've ordered the EGR simulator/cheater from ebay, and it's still on its way. However I couldn't stand my car being suffocated while waiting for the device. So I made my own EGR blanking plate out of 4mm RVS and as predicted after three runs the engine light came on. I've driven 200KM so far. No noticable power inprovement, but hey, I just had the problem for 10 days so thats different than having the problem for over a year.

The milages did improve and it's back to normal I guess, maybe a little better than normal. Atleast thats what the ECU is telling me, and it has proven to be quite accurate over time. I know for sure in 3 days when my tank is empty again.

I will leave the blanking plate on until next weekend, then i'm going to add the EGR simulator/cheater and see if that makes any difference in milage or power.
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Good stuff, when they introduced EGRs to the U.S. Truck fleet as a mandatory addition, the whole US fleet MPG over the U.S. got worse by 3%, so you should expect to see an improvement in that figure when blanked.


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Did the coughing disappear after you installed the plate? Loooking forward to hear if the simulator makes any diff. Beside turning of EML-light :-)

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I'm testing this for you as we speak.


So I had the `little cough problem` since +- 10 days. Especially when the engine is cold, around 1800 - 2000 rpm, and pushing the pedal just a few mm down. Resulting in the boostpressure to drop to zero. When giving a little more gas, there is a delay followed by a hikkup, afterwards things are normal again.

I had no issues starting though. What I did see was a 13% milage increasement over these days. I keep track of my fuelings: https://www.spritmonitor.de/en/detail/746178.html

First I thought it had something to do with my new tires (the milage increasement), but I couldn't ignore those `coughs`, so it had to be EGR related.

I've ordered the EGR simulator/cheater from ebay, and it's still on its way. However I couldn't stand my car being suffocated while waiting for the device. So I made my own EGR blanking plate out of 4mm RVS and as predicted after three runs the engine light came on. I've driven 200KM so far. No noticable power inprovement, but hey, I just had the problem for 10 days so thats different than having the problem for over a year.

The milages did improve and it's back to normal I guess, maybe a little better than normal. Atleast thats what the ECU is telling me, and it has proven to be quite accurate over time. I know for sure in 3 days when my tank is empty again.

I will leave the blanking plate on until next weekend, then i'm going to add the EGR simulator/cheater and see if that makes any difference in milage or power.
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