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(Post Link) post #1 of 28 Old 16-05-12 Thread Starter
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159 QTronic problems

Hello,

i have a problem with my automatic gear in 2007 JTDm 2400cc alfa romeo 159

sometimes when changing gears automatically, the revs go high up and then when the new gear goes in there is a big bang. i think that it is only between 2 and 3 but not sure.

thank you
gamal
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Only when the trans is hot and also when changing from 4th to 5th gear.
Haven't found a solution.
If you find out the problem please inform me!
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Get the fluid flushed if odd behaviour is experienced at high temperatures.
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First, diagnose the car. See if there is codes stored in the ECU.
how many km on the car ? If over 80000km i would change oil and filter and gasket in the transmission anyway.
There will be special procedures doing this, so do it in a shop that are "experts".
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You can't change the filter. There is no part and if you want to do it (if you find a filter) you have to take the trans off the car.
Changing fluid (Tutela GI/VI ONLY) does nothing at all!!!!!!
I have changed it 3 times and still the same behavior.
No ECU errors.
So once again, if someone has a solution PLEASE inform us.
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(Post Link) post #6 of 28 Old 16-05-12 Thread Starter
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thanx,

i have almost 48,000Km on the clock.
happened also when relativly cold

i'll try at least once to change oil before i get into drastic action

i'll also check for codes, but i think that there arent any.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by melsaltas View Post
You can't change the filter. There is no part and if you want to do it (if you find a filter) you have to take the trans off the car.
Changing fluid (Tutela GI/VI ONLY) does nothing at all!!!!!!
I have changed it 3 times and still the same behavior.
No ECU errors.
So once again, if someone has a solution PLEASE inform us.
ok, is there something to do with the TCM? Try to do software upgrade (if there is any) ?
I am not sure about this, just a thought.
Did you change the oil yourself ? or on a workshop ? Think there is procedures to follow and very specific settings(computer).

Maybe best to take it to a specialist on automatix gearboxes, get a diagnose ?

Found this link, hope it helps.

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...-shifting.html

Last edited by lesken; 16-05-12 at 21:31.
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Hi,

I'm getting relatively rough gear changes, normally between 1st and 2nd, with a clunk sound and a small shudder. Also, the car is sluggish generally (3.2 V6).

It looks as though the engine oil has never been properly changed - it's all cruddy, despite several efforts now to flush and change the oil. There's a view that it's causing an issue for the (I'm not technical!) jets within the pipes that run off the engine. I might be wrong with the specifics of that! But the cruddy residual engine oil seems to be causing a problem.

Don't know if of any help - or if anyone has a view. Bit worried about it...
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As far as I know the gear oil has never been changed by previous owner (makes sense at 48K Km that there was no need to)

The engine oil on the other hand was changed a couple of times according to the dealership recordings. I don't think that the problem is in that direction.

I scanned and there are pending (not verified) errors: P0813 and U1706
in the current errors there arent any codes.
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I have had this issue myself a couple of times from 2-3 and have found a way of recreating the problem and also avoiding it.

For me at least, it seems that to make it do this, all I have to do is floor it from standing, tnen just as I get to the top end of the rev range in second, slightly lift off to "balance" the rpm and stop accelerating. What I have found is that this confuses the gearbox ECU (bad program logic), making it hold the gear for 2-3 seconds allowing torque to build up. Once the gearbox ECU realises it should change gear, there is a stack of torque waiting to be used and the net result is it all gets dumped into the gearbox as you change to 3rd + the RPM's get dropped really low, so you get a bang/thud and what I can only assume is a very bad thing for the clutches / torque converter!!

The ways I have found to avoid this is simple.

Option 1) if you floor it from a standing start or junction, be prepared to keep it floored well into 3rd, or else just don't floor it! 1/2 or 3/4 depression of the loud pedal wont create this problem.

Option 2) If you manage to catch the RPM sat high in 2nd as you have been accelerating hard from standing, but now need to slow down, don't slowly reduce the pedal angle, but instead, take your foot off the accelerator completely. This seems to tell the gearbox ECU to not change gear and lets the revs fall back down normally avoiding the torque being dumped into the box.

Option 3) use "sport mode" all the time. I find sport mode less eager to change gear at high RPM, and this can reduce the gearbox's likelihood to cause the issue.

From the research I have done into the issue and the gearbox in general looking for potential upgrade options to handle more torque, the general consensus is that the box is fairly good (its a Toyota ASIN TF-60 which is used on loads of different cars, rated up to 500Nm of torque). What's not so good is the logic in the gearbox ECU, which is designed by each manufacturer to suit the dynamics of the car/driving style etc.

That said, in fairness to the car and its programming, mine only does this when I decide to be a bit of a boy racer and floor it from junctions, then remember I am a grown man and am in a built up area and back off the accelerator at the speed limit If I accelerate from standing to 100+ (on a track of course officer) The gearbox is silky smooth and just perfect.
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when your car make gear change is it worse when cold or warm ? or same all time ?

Last edited by lesken; 17-05-12 at 11:39.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtdmer View Post
As far as I know the gear oil has never been changed by previous owner (makes sense at 48K Km that there was no need to)

The engine oil on the other hand was changed a couple of times according to the dealership recordings. I don't think that the problem is in that direction.

I scanned and there are pending (not verified) errors: P0813 and U1706
in the current errors there arent any codes.
The code refers to something in the transmission. Think you need a workshop to look into this.

Data trouble codes - Outils OBD Facile

Found a description on code P0813:

Powertrain - Transmission - ISO/SAE Controlled
Description
Transmission Switch Conditions
Cause :
Engine running and PCM detected that a particular switch signal did not change when the vehicle was shifted into or out of the gear position (switch status high instead of low).

hope it helps. Good luck.
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Is the Q-tronic like the DSG ? Just reading about some mechatronic units going bad if there is hard shifting gears.
Just a thought,,
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The QTRONIC is a traditional auto box. I double checked and its a TF-80SC not a 60 as I said before. here is the marketing explanation from Toyota themselves:

"The design team set out to create a 6 speed automatic that fits in the same space as a manual gearbox. It measures 358 mm (14.1 in) in length and weighs 90 kg (198 lb). Its combined use of a conventional 5-pinion planetary gearset and a compound Ravigneaux gearset makes it incredibly light and compact. This combination is known as a Lepelletier arrangement. The shifting of gears is managed by a sophisticated computer programme which oversees a clutch-to-clutch actuation. Gear changes are accomplished by one clutch engaging the instant the clutch from the previous gear disengages. The transmission control module (TCM) is located inside the transmission housing, instead of being located outside it. The advantage of this is to reduce external wiring as well as to provide a constant environment for TCM operation which encourages longevity. One aspect of the advanced nature of the electronics is at idle, it automatically selects neutral gear to reduce internal temperatures and improves fuel economy."

And here is a link to a diagrammatic explosion of the box.

Last edited by JabawokJayUK; 20-05-12 at 14:08.
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thanks for info,

Would check valve body and TCM. Looks like some have problems with hard shifting before.
Said earlier in this thread(post 7). Think maybe that is the solution, but you guys need a workshop to confirm what is going on. Expensive parts so i would not begin to change any part without get a verification from a dealer on this subject.

Good luck to you all.
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Very clever things these Qtronics. I'm trying to work out how the internal clutches works as i can see mine appears to slip the gears a bit to keep changes smooth. Anyone shed any light on this area?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfa.Romeo View Post
Very clever things these Qtronics. I'm trying to work out how the internal clutches works as i can see mine appears to slip the gears a bit to keep changes smooth. Anyone shed any light on this area?
It should be a torque converter, have a look on google, all clever stuff.
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Q-tronic thrusts, twitchings

Mileage is 50000km.

1. Especially under braking, when the machine shifts gears down, I feel thrusts at these switching. They are transmitted through the brake pedal.

2. When I'm doing switching from В to R , I feel appreciable thrust at rear axle.


3. Switching from 1 to 2 gear is always perfect always, switching from 2 to 3 is hard when rpm are more than 5000.

4. Case1. 2nd gear, 40kmph. I drop acceleration, speed falls down till 30 kmph. I press acceleration and feel thust/impact at rear axle. I should press acceleration at 30kmph very carefully to prevent real axle impact.

5. Case 2. 3rd gear, 40kmph. I press acceleration , rpm and speed become to rise , then a car resists a little to acceleration by switching fuel supply off (I guess). It feels like twitching. I should press acceleration very carefully to prevent twitching. If I press acceleration deeply when driving 3rd gear 40kmph, LED "Check" appears and turns off after several minutes pass.
Does Q-Tronic tries to save itself from hard acceleration when rpm are low at 3 gear?


There were no such twitchings, thrusts, impacts 10000km ago. Maybe they were but not so appreciable. Other switchings are good.

CPU shows all parameters OK. Updating, restore of parameters do not help.

What parts become worn?

Many, many thanks!

P.S. Sorry for my english.
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I had this before an oil change, oil flush, engine flush and air intake clean. It stopped after that.
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I had this before an oil change, oil flush, engine flush and air intake clean. It stopped after that.
Did you have all 5 problems as I and all they were fixed after you change oil etc?
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You are describing 3 separate issues from what I can see:

Point 2 & 4 sounds like the normal Q4 operation. It is "apparently" a little clunky and sometimes makes thud/bang/clunk noises from the rear diff. Check the forums for this.

Points 1 can be fixed by resetting the auto-learned parameters of the QTRONIC automatic transmission in FES/MES. This worked for me anyway.

Point 3 sounds like a sticky solenoid and is a common issue with the TF80-SC Automatic transmission. Either live with it or pay to have the gearbox reconditioned.

Point 4 is an intake air issue most likely. I had this and it went away after my oil/flush/engine/intake clean, but it came back after a few thousand miles. I am now looking into the boost side of things as it seems to be related to a momentary drop in boost pressure at the same time. I appreciate your a 3.2 N/A so not a boost issue for you, but its worth checking the intake side of things rather than attributing every fault to the automatic transmission.

All of the above info is from/in this forum in different threads and has been pieced together, but I am no expert so if someone else has a better idea, step forward!!!
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Get the fluid flushed if odd behaviour is experienced at high temperatures.
Thats the way to do it
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JabawokJayUK View Post
You are describing 3 separate issues from what I can see:

Point 2 & 4 sounds like the normal Q4 operation. It is "apparently" a little clunky and sometimes makes thud/bang/clunk noises from the rear diff. Check the forums for this.

Points 1 can be fixed by resetting the auto-learned parameters of the QTRONIC automatic transmission in FES/MES. This worked for me anyway.

Point 3 sounds like a sticky solenoid and is a common issue with the TF80-SC Automatic transmission. Either live with it or pay to have the gearbox reconditioned.

Point 4 is an intake air issue most likely. I had this and it went away after my oil/flush/engine/intake clean, but it came back after a few thousand miles. I am now looking into the boost side of things as it seems to be related to a momentary drop in boost pressure at the same time. I appreciate your a 3.2 N/A so not a boost issue for you, but its worth checking the intake side of things rather than attributing every fault to the automatic transmission.

All of the above info is from/in this forum in different threads and has been pieced together, but I am no expert so if someone else has a better idea, step forward!!!
Thanks for kind answer. I will try it. But gearbox parameters reset did not help. What do you think about point5?
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I have a P0813 fault, I fixed the P0504 fault with the brake switch replacement now there is still the fault of the P0813 reverse signal fault that comes up has anyone experienced this fault
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Hi, My Qtronic 159 Ti has the switch for 'sports' mode next to the gear shifter disabled ! 2 things I need to know....1, will it be an easy enough (for the garage) job to get it setup to work, and 2, were some Qtronics just not equipped with the wiring etc to do this ?
Any suggestions gratefully received.
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