Steering Alignment (with Correct Data in Post 1) - Page 15 - Alfa Romeo Forum
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Wheel alignment - Camber & Caster

Just back from Kwik fit, they've done the toe settings but not camber & caster, is this normal? Camber seems to be out quite a bit on the front, should I be worried, how is this adjusted & is it something they should've done?

Also, the printout says they're setting up to an Alfa 159 Ti, whereas mine's not a Ti, does this matter??

Any advice appreciated
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Everyone has spoke on this, you can only adjust the camber via upper arms or top mounts. And on the Brera/159 to rectifiy this issue you need powerflex camber adjustable bushes & bolts.
Do a search many thread on powerflex.
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Did they touch the rear...?
Rear toe is uneven (and exactly as it was before) and rear camber is out too (rear camber IS adjustable).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David C View Post
Did they touch the rear...?
Rear toe is uneven (and exactly as it was before) and rear camber is out too (rear camber IS adjustable).
I thought he'd only paid for the front to be tracked & not a 4 wheel aligment aswell as camber/casting, which is a higher cost. But i was just letting him know about the powerflex bushes for the fronts
The OP didn't mention what he paid for
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Thanks for your replies, I thought I was getting a 4 wheel check but I realise now that was a wrong assumption as there is no mention of that in the blurb. I have had a discussion about the Hunter system on here before so maybe I inferred wrongly about it.

Re rear toe, I see what you mean however it says within spec, should I still get it adjusted? Similarly with the camber & caster, how much difference will it make? Altogether, the tyres & alignment came to just under 600 so don't want any avoidable wear.
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Rear camber is adjustable, so should be adjusted.
Rear toe is also adjustable, so should also be adjusted.

At the moment you've twice as much toe on the rear right than the rear left...
Get everything adjusted properly otherwise you may as well not bother adjusting anything at all...!!!

You want even camber and even toe.
Adjust rear first, then the front.

Saying that, there is no way to adjust the front camber without special bushes and you've got less camber than spec on front right and rear right, so it isn't increasing inner wear (which is usually the issue)

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Great info and advice.

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I have just got back from getting my car 4 wheel aligned and puncture repaired. My car felt awful, really twitchy and caught every bump and surface difference and I had to fight the steering wheel sometimes. I had a fight getting him to set the front to zero. Nice guy, used him 4 times previously with my old alfas and his machine had been updated 2 weeks ago and checked by the manufacturing company so was certain his machine was correct! He wanted to set my front to -1.6mm instead of 0 as that what the machine said so my drawing looks wrong! Camber is spot on on all 4 wheels now but he has set the back to -2.6mm but I don't know how that compares to degrees as I thought it had to be +1.3mm? Anyway, drives great! Front caster is well out though and he couldn't do much about it, what should front caster be? What should the rears be in MM and realistically, will it make a difference? All 4 wheels were miles out of each other at first.
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Not sure why he's set his machine to output in mm instead of degrees. It will be difficult to convert because different size wheels will give different outputs for the same degrees. Ask him to set up his machine for the real output you need.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davej311 View Post
Just back from Kwik fit, they've done the toe settings but not camber & caster, is this normal? Camber seems to be out quite a bit on the front, should I be worried, how is this adjusted & is it something they should've done?

Also, the printout says they're setting up to an Alfa 159 Ti, whereas mine's not a Ti, does this matter??

Any advice appreciated

It might be possible to even up the front camber by shifting the sub-frame. There's quite a bit of room around the bolts to allow the frame to be moved.

In your case moving the sub-frame to the right will give more negative camber to the RH and less negative camber on the LH.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Engineer View Post
Not sure why he's set his machine to output in mm instead of degrees. It will be difficult to convert because different size wheels will give different outputs for the same degrees. Ask him to set up his machine for the real output you need.

I can't ask him to change his machine, I presume though, 0 degree is the same as 0mm so the fronts should be fine and the rears are in spec so should be ok?
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Any chance that anyone can help me with this please, as above diagram, my garage works to mm not degrees. I'm presuming the fronts are ok but I'm debating getting them set to -0.5mm at the front as it feels a bit free/airey/floaty. I'm just a bit worried about the rear as I think it is too much toe in? Thinking to ask him to set it to -1.0mm instead of -2.5mm. If my calculations are correct that is about 0.13 degrees?
I'm going to take it back tomorrow and he will change it for free.

Thanks in advance.
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Also, and I think this is worrying, unless I'm reading it wrong, you all have positive figures for the rear, I have a negative figure, yet it's still in the green? I'm thinking -5.1mm total, should be more like +2.0mm total but I'm presuming they are using the standard Alfa settings on their computer?

Last edited by Mattyc; 07-03-15 at 08:57.
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I am going to go back to the garage today and ask for a refund and see if I can take it somewhere else to get done. Noticed this morning on a 20 mile trip, my mpg was down around 10 mpg.
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hi guys,
are the sittings on the post one's thumbnail correct for 159 1.8 mpi with 16" alloys?
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Just a update (if anyone is interested) been back to garage and he agreed with me, the rear are set to 2.5mm toe OUT, not toe in as specified in alfa manual. He paid 3500 2 weeks ago to get machine updated and calibrated. They have 3 other machines in my area, 2 set to mm and 2 set to degrees. He is going to speak to the machine manufacturer on Monday and also see what the other 3 machines are set to and then either update the machine to the correct settings or give me a full refund. I trust them, he was the manager and a nice guy and am sure they will sort it out.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattyc View Post
Just a update (if anyone is interested) been back to garage and he agreed with me, the rear are set to 2.5mm toe OUT, not toe in as specified in alfa manual. He paid 3500 2 weeks ago to get machine updated and calibrated. They have 3 other machines in my area, 2 set to mm and 2 set to degrees. He is going to speak to the machine manufacturer on Monday and also see what the other 3 machines are set to and then either update the machine to the correct settings or give me a full refund. I trust them, he was the manager and a nice guy and am sure they will sort it out.
Rear should be toe-in.
The rear descriptive diagram on your pic shows the wheels toe-ing out, but with a -ve figure which then means toe-in.
Rear toe-in is usually around 3mm (total) on most road cars. You'd never have toe-out on the rear on the road... not unless you enjoy going through hedges backwards!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David C View Post
Rear should be toe-in.
The rear descriptive diagram on your pic shows the wheels toe-ing out, but with a -ve figure which then means toe-in.
Rear toe-in is usually around 3mm (total) on most road cars. You'd never have toe-out on the rear on the road... not unless you enjoy going through hedges backwards!!
Thanks for looking David. So are you saying mine looks ok? Maybe it has too much toe in at -5.1mm but it IS toe in, not to toe out? Maybe just needs to be reduced to -1.5mm each side for a total toe in of -3mm?
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Just a final update, the machine Bush tyres use in hull is manufactured by john Bean.
I have spoke to john bean direct and they have confirmed what david c said, the rears are toe-in. They told me the specs for my car FOR THE REARS are 0.35-1.00 degrees so according to my calculations that is 2.64mm-7.54mm so as mine are set to 2.5mm, this should be ok. (mine are actually set to -2.5mm but that is just how their machine reads it)
What i dont understand is in the recommended settings in post one, the rears are set to 0.13 degrees and according to my calculations, that is 0.98mm not the standard settings that they are telling me!

I think i am going to leave it as it is as the camber on all 4 wheels is spot on and the front is set to zero so these are as recomended here and im pretty sure the rears are set correctly too or if slightly set to too much toe in but not by much, will this setting eat my tyres and should i get the toe in reduced to a lower figure?

The car feels much better, it still tram-lines but not very much, nothing like it did before and i am putting this down to 8 year old suspension and no work has ever been done on the suspension so i reckon the bushes may be slightly worn out and making it tramline a bit.

My MPG is back to normal now at 36-45mpg depending on length of journey etc.

P.S. this is the link i have been using to calculate degrees to mm and using a setting of 432 diameter for 17" alloys
http://www.furybusa.org.uk/camber.php
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Sounds like you are sorted. But what I meant about changing the machine was not 'buy a new one'. Just get the guy to change the output in the machine settings.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattyc View Post
What i dont understand is in the recommended settings in post one, the rears are set to 0.13 degrees and according to my calculations, that is 0.98mm not the standard settings that they are telling me!
The link on page one shows 0deg13'
That is not the same as 0.13deg
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God, it is so bloody complicated! How on earth do I convert 0deg13' to mm then as I haven't got a bloody clue now!
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0deg13' is 13/60th of a degree.
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Steering Alignment (with Correct Data in Post 1)

Thanks again David. Based on this forum message below from a lotus site, I'm thinking I need to set my rears to near enough 1mm toe in then with a total toe in of 2mm?

"Quote:
Originally Posted by zuspiel View Post
Apk had a real keyboard... What he said...


Also note that for small angles (less than one degree or so), the sin of an angle is approximately equal the the angle in radians... so you can estimate:

arcsin(toe / wheel diameter) = (toe / wheel diameter) * 180/pi

In that case total toe is estimated as (2 / (17 * 25.4)) * 57.3 or 0.265 degrees

So... for a 17" wheel, every 1 mm of toe is equivalent to about 0.133 degrees of toe angle."

If I need a toe in value at the rear of 0.13degrees as recommended, that equates to around 1mm give or take and as my rears are set to 2.5mm and total toe of 5.1mm mine looks like the rears are set to 0.325 degrees toe in giving a total toe in of 0.7degrees. This seems too much so do you agree I should ask them to set rears to 1mm toe in NOT 2.5mm toe in or will it not make much of a difference?
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Had my alignment done a couple of weeks ago on a Hunter system.
Paid just under 80 to have front & rears adjusted to hopefully put an end to the catastrophic inner edge wear to the fronts.
I took the settings with me that were posted on here & asked for it to be set like that but then the engineer called me out & asked what & why etc.
All to techy for me tbh & I told him my only interested was putting an end to the inner wear issue.
I'm not a mechanic & am trusting their judgement a professional engineers with the best 4 wheel alignment system that money can buy to sort this problem.
After 300 miles no sign of inner edge wear yet but got to pop it back in the morning as the steering wheel is very slightly off centre (right hand down) and driving me mad.
My point is if you are paying out for a service to rectify a fault I would expect it should sorted first time round & the consumer shouldn't need to know about how many degrees of toe,camber & caster they require.
Fine if your interested but I say pay for a service, fix the problem.
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