Steering Alignment (with Correct Data in Post 1) - Page 12 - Alfa Romeo Forum
You are currently unregistered, register for more features.    
 1Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Status: 159 2.4 20007 plate 19,500 DPF/EGR by Adie (AHM)
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: United Kingdom
County: Wiltshire
Posts: 2,284
Images: 16
When you get the 4 wheel alignment done they may run out of adjustment on the rear before achieving the manufacturers recommendations; if that happens then just make sure it is equal on both sides - spot on equal not just near enough. Do not have one side to manufacturers settings and the other different to that. It is a bit fiddly to get both sides spot on but it is possible, it is just about the care they take.

I have said it before but stroking egos and telling them that if they do a spot on job you will post the print here and recommend them to your mates if they do a good job usually helps ensure a good job.

They probably will not want to set the front to 0°but tell them that is what you want and you will accept responsibility.
kandlbarrett is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Status: -
AO Member
 
colins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 169
Do I need to be in the driver seat while having the 4-wheel alignment done? Any difference with and without?

Due to road crown, the car will pull slightly towards the left (on UK road); can an adjustment on the geometry compensate this?

Thanks.

Last edited by colins; 30-10-12 at 05:58.
colins is offline  
Status: -
AO Platinum Member
 
David C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: London, England
Posts: 29,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by colins View Post
Do I need to be in the driver seat while having the 4-wheel alignment done? Any difference with and without?

Due to road crown, the car will pull slightly towards the left (on UK road); can an adjustment on the geometry compensate this?
No.
and
No.

Not all road have crowns and those that do are not all the same, so just set it correctly.
David C is offline  
 
(Post Link) post #279 of 416 Old 30-10-12 Thread Starter
Status: Still engineering
AO Silver Member
 
Old Engineer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Esher
County: Surrey
Posts: 2,099
Images: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by colins View Post
Do I need to be in the driver seat while having the 4-wheel alignment done? Any difference with and without?

Due to road crown, the car will pull slightly towards the left (on UK road); can an adjustment on the geometry compensate this?

Thanks.
Probably sorted by getting the rear wheels pointing in the right direction
Old Engineer is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
colins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Engineer View Post
Probably sorted by getting the rear wheels pointing in the right direction
Could you please elaborate?

Thanks Old Engineer and David C.
colins is offline  
(Post Link) post #281 of 416 Old 01-11-12 Thread Starter
Status: Still engineering
AO Silver Member
 
Old Engineer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Esher
County: Surrey
Posts: 2,099
Images: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by colins View Post
Could you please elaborate?
You'll find an explanation in post 279 above.

Last edited by paul.o; 11-09-13 at 20:30.
Old Engineer is offline  
Status: -
AO Platinum Member
 
David C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: London, England
Posts: 29,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by colins View Post
Due to road crown, the car will pull slightly towards the left (on UK road); can an adjustment on the geometry compensate this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by David C View Post
Not all road have crowns and those that do are not all the same, so just set it correctly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by colins View Post
Could you please elaborate?
You can't compensate for an unknown and inconsistent amount of road camber.

So unless you are setting a car up for a specific circuit (very extreme on ovals), set it even side to side.
David C is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
colins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Engineer View Post
If your rears are out of line you will have a pull to one side. Best to start waving your hands around to help with this next description.

Imagine your near side rear wheel has taken a hit and is now pointing outwards (hold your left hand cranked outwards while your right hand is pointing straight). The car will compensate by tracking the whole rear leftwards (move hands to the left while equalising the angle). Now the whole car is pointing to the right so if you don't want to go right you will have to put on some left lock to go down the road. The fronts of course will want to self centre back to their straight ahead.
I read this more than 10 times and still don't get it....
We are talking about right-hand-drive car (i.e. UK)? If near side rear is pointing outwards, why is it that "left hand" cranked outwards?
colins is offline  
(Post Link) post #284 of 416 Old 02-11-12 Thread Starter
Status: Still engineering
AO Silver Member
 
Old Engineer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Esher
County: Surrey
Posts: 2,099
Images: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by colins View Post
I read this more than 10 times and still don't get it....
We are talking about right-hand-drive car (i.e. UK)? If near side rear is pointing outwards, why is it that "left hand" cranked outwards?
OK.
Put your hands up as if you are about to clap with the thumbs closest to you. The tips of your fingers are the front of the wheels and your wrist is the back of the wheels. The nearside wheel (left hand) takes a knock. Now your left hand (at its tip) is pointing away from the right hand.
The car won't travel along the road with just the nearside wheel scrubbing. The rear axle will equalise until both rear wheels are equally scrubbing. Back to the hands for the difficult piece. Leave both tips where they are and move the wrists until the hands have the same angle. If you do this enough times you'll see that everything is moving to the left to obtain this equalised angle. That's exactly what the car does. The back goes left so the front is pointing right. You won't want to go right so you move your steering wheel. Now your front is trying to self correct against you input. Hence you will feel it pulling.

Last edited by Old Engineer; 02-11-12 at 22:56. Reason: Spelling
Old Engineer is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
colins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Engineer View Post
OK.
Put your hands up as if you are about to clap with the thumbs closest to you. The tips of your fingers are the front of the wheels and your wrist is the back of the wheels. The nearside wheel (left hand) takes a knock. Now your left hand (at its tip) is pointing away from the right hand.
The car won't travel along the road with just the nearside wheel scrubbing. The rear axle will equalise until both rear wheels are equally scrubbing. Back to the hands for the difficult piece. Leave both tips where they are and move the wrists until the hands have the same angle. If you do this enough times you'll see that everything is moving to the left to obtain this equalised angle. That's exactly what the car does. The back goes left so the front is pointing right. You won't want to go right so you move your steering wheel. Now your front is trying to self correct against you input. Hence you will feel it pulling.
Thanks Old Engineer, I got the concept now.

Silly question, but isn't nearside = the side where the driver is = right hand? Did I missed something?
colins is offline  
Status: -
AO Platinum Member
 
David C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: London, England
Posts: 29,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by colins View Post
Silly question, but isn't nearside = the side where the driver is = right hand? Did I missed something?
"near side" is the side nearest the kerb, so the passenger side on a RHD car in the UK.

Usually less confusing to just say "left" or "right" ...!
David C is offline  
Status: -
AO Gold Member
 
badgers_nadgers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: United Kingdom
County: Dorset
Posts: 7,154

Member car:

156 GTA SW

I must admit to not having read this thread as it all seems too daunting, but having had my wheels aligned to 0 at the front and whatever the factory settings are at the back, it's reduced my front tyre wear from 6k miles with the inner tread scrubbed to 10k miles with even wear.
badgers_nadgers is offline  
Status: 159 2.4 20007 plate 19,500 DPF/EGR by Adie (AHM)
AO Silver Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: United Kingdom
County: Wiltshire
Posts: 2,284
Images: 16
Some of you will have read my thread from about 12 months ago when I had new front tyres and 4 wheel alignment including front castor adjusted by moving the subframe. Well just under 13,000 miles later and I have had all 4 new tyres fitted and that gave me a chance to have a close look at the old ones when they were off of the car.

The Michelins on the front have done just under 13,000 and were down to about 2mm across the tyre with some minor extra inner edge wear over the last 1½"

The rears, Pirelli PZero Neros, were on the car when purchased with about 5mm tread depth on them. On removal I noticed that they were more heavily worn on the outside edge than on the inside. I didn't take the opportunity to use a tread depth gauge but I would guess that the outer tread was about 1.5mm and the inner was about 3.0mm.

The tyre supplier I use does not have the latest equipment for alignment so the car will have to wait until next W/E before it gets a visit to a specialist and I intend using Formula 1 Centre in Swindon. Only because they have been good for other cars of mine recently and they have an ex-Alfa Romeo apprentice working for them. They also do as I ask them without arguing. I used to get the, "it will be your responsibility sir," but I don't even get that now.

My thoughts are:-
Fronts - set to 0 this time. Last time I set them to minus 2 and this may account for the slight inner edge wear.
Rear - have the rear checked and make a decision when I know what settings they are at. The wear on the rear looked more like camber wear than toe wear as it was evenly tapered across the tyre. This makes me question the accuracy of the previous garage equipment or care they took attaching it to the car.

The only frustrating point that will make me less sure of what I want on the rear is that having driven the car to get the tyres changed I have noticed that it is pulling to the near side. "Oh yes, it's been doing that for a while said my wife." It's her car and I rarely drive it.

I have some pictures of the tyre wear - poor quality iPhone pics - and I will post them with the next post when I get the alignment done.

Last edited by kandlbarrett; 03-11-12 at 21:22.
kandlbarrett is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
colins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 169
Quote:
Originally Posted by David C View Post
"near side" is the side nearest the kerb, so the passenger side on a RHD car in the UK.

Usually less confusing to just say "left" or "right" ...!
OK got it thanks!
colins is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: United Kingdom
County: Devon
Posts: 185
As I have posted in the past I adopted from day one the alignment settings recommended in this thread - I have my own gauges and so was able to do it very carefully. Subsequent tyre wear speaks for itself. I have just fitted a third set of tyres at 47,000 - with 2.0 mm remaining. Wear was perfectly even all round - albeit slightly more in the centre despite using lower pressures than generally recommended - the tyre fitters said that it is rare to see such even wear on any car - enough said!
George K is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Malta
Posts: 144
hi all

i have a 159 Ti sportwagon now due to wishbone change i need to have a 4 wheel alignment! i know above here there is a lot of figures but i can't seem to understand them, what are the factory figures for a TI sportwagon with 19" alloys?

i need the figures so when i go to the guy in the garage i say these are the ones!

thanks a lot all!
domav is offline  
(Post Link) post #292 of 416 Old 05-12-12 Thread Starter
Status: Still engineering
AO Silver Member
 
Old Engineer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Esher
County: Surrey
Posts: 2,099
Images: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by domav View Post
hi all

i have a 159 Ti sportwagon now due to wishbone change i need to have a 4 wheel alignment! i know above here there is a lot of figures but i can't seem to understand them, what are the factory figures for a TI sportwagon with 19" alloys?

i need the figures so when i go to the guy in the garage i say these are the ones!

thanks a lot all!
Exactly as my first post! It's all there.
Old Engineer is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Malta
Posts: 144
Thanks but you have set it up to 0 in the front but whats the oem setup?
domav is offline  
(Post Link) post #294 of 416 Old 05-12-12 Thread Starter
Status: Still engineering
AO Silver Member
 
Old Engineer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Esher
County: Surrey
Posts: 2,099
Images: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by domav View Post
Thanks but you have set it up to 0 in the front but whats the oem setup?
Second paragraph shows new settings in bold with the original in brackets. It can't be clearer!
Old Engineer is offline  
Status: Always working
Identity Confirmed
Authorised Trader
 
Autolusso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Bedfordshire
Posts: 6,500
Images: 222
Sorted

It has taken some time but I am pleased to say this is finally sorted and we have a solution. I have been working on this on and off for about 4 years, sorted

Car drives amazingly, probably like it was designed to drive

A slight adjustment needed to make them easier to adjust but it works that is the important thing

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...nt-sorted.html

Ned
Autolusso is offline  
(Post Link) post #296 of 416 Old 09-02-13 Thread Starter
Status: Still engineering
AO Silver Member
 
Old Engineer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Esher
County: Surrey
Posts: 2,099
Images: 12
Interesting

I see you have reduced Camber but increased Toe Out. Your Toe is set to Minus 4' (per wheel) but Camber down closer to one degree negative. My latest setting is Minus 2' (per wheel) but Camber at Minus 1 Degree 32'

I suspect we might end up with similar tyre wear. The normal 159 suspension feels dead if you go to a positive Toe but I'm not sure what your camber change will do.

I also see the rear Camber is unbalanced. Was this deliberate or just part way through the settings?
Old Engineer is offline  
Status: -
AO Gold Member
 
badgers_nadgers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: United Kingdom
County: Dorset
Posts: 7,154

Member car:

156 GTA SW

Quote:
Originally Posted by badgers_nadgers View Post
I must admit to not having read this thread as it all seems too daunting, but having had my wheels aligned to 0 at the front and whatever the factory settings are at the back, it's reduced my front tyre wear from 6k miles with the inner tread scrubbed to 10k miles with even wear.
I hadn't noticed that this was about 159s and breras, so apologies for my totally irrelevant post. Only saw it as the the thread was revived. Blame tapatalk and alcohol!
badgers_nadgers is offline  
Lucky Lui
Status: - Update
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Can someone please help.
I had a new set of tyres fitted in July/August and since then 12000 miles later MOT advisory shows inner wear on fronts near close to the wear band.
I had my wheels set as attached yet I'm still scrubbing the inside edge on the fronts but rears are wearing nice and even. Can anyone provide me with a setting for a 159 2.4 ti with the 19inch rims. Any advise will be better than none.

Thanks
Lui
Attached Files
File Type: pdf 00206B64C903120903155526.pdf (51.2 KB, 47 views)
 
Status: -
AO Platinum Member
 
David C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: London, England
Posts: 29,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky Lui View Post
Can someone please help.
I had a new set of tyres fitted in July/August and since then 12000 miles later MOT advisory shows inner wear on fronts near close to the wear band.
I had my wheels set as attached yet I'm still scrubbing the inside edge on the fronts but rears are wearing nice and even. Can anyone provide me with a setting for a 159 2.4 ti with the 19inch rims. Any advise will be better than none.
Are your tyres the correct spec and are you using the correct pressures?
David C is offline  
(Post Link) post #300 of 416 Old 12-02-13 Thread Starter
Status: Still engineering
AO Silver Member
 
Old Engineer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Esher
County: Surrey
Posts: 2,099
Images: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky Lui View Post
Can someone please help.
I had a new set of tyres fitted in July/August and since then 12000 miles later MOT advisory shows inner wear on fronts near close to the wear band.
I had my wheels set as attached yet I'm still scrubbing the inside edge on the fronts but rears are wearing nice and even. Can anyone provide me with a setting for a 159 2.4 ti with the 19inch rims. Any advise will be better than none.

Thanks
Lui
The settings are in Post Number 1.
But I'm worried about the difference in Camber and Caster on your front axle. They're not adjustable so I'd be looking for damage or worn joints. The nearside bottom wishbone might be sitting back further than it should.
Old Engineer is offline  
Reply

Go Back   Alfa Romeo Forum > Supported Alfa Romeo Models > Technical & Vehicle Assistance > Alfa 159, Brera & 946 Spider

Tags
alignment , camber , caster , correct , data , post , steering , wheel

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
Replace with
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome