Brera 1.7 - Alfa Romeo Forum
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(Post Link) post #1 of 22 Old 02-09-16 Thread Starter
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Brera 1.7

OK, I have owned my Brera 2.4 for nearly two years now and there is no denying it is an amazing car, so much presence it's untrue BUT, I just cannot get my head around the diesel engine, on the move it great but start up and tooling around, its a dreadful noise.
SO, I have thought about a 1.7 tbi Giulietta but I am not sure, it does not exactly rock my boat. Then I thought about the Brera 1750, what is the general consensus of opinion, they seem thin on the ground. At 200 bhp they seem a little lightweight but as the Giulietta is 235? then I am guessing it must be relatively easy to crank it up a little. Voloces have one at the moment, they seem to want a kings ransom for it, also they talk about an upgrade to 275bhp, that could make it very interesting.
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Sounds good at 275bhp
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upgrade to 275hp likely will need things like turbo, ic and maybe injectors change, and that would be expensive. also it will likely end up with more than 400Nm and that is too much for both m32 gearbox and 2 mass flywheel (giulietta has different gearbox and not sure if it has 2 mass fly wheel) . also for front wheel drive car seems too much.

i got my 159 tbi modded in february, just maps and boost limiters plus bit of extra rpms and tuned for RON98 fuel. I ended up with 240bhp 370Nm on dyno, and happy with this. cost me order of eur350
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Having had a 2.2 and 1750 it's difficult to chose between the two.

If you modded a 2.2 with remap, air intake and exhaust you could probably get it up to 200BHP

But overall I think found the 1750 was a more flexible engine day-to-day.
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(Post Link) post #5 of 22 Old 02-09-16 Thread Starter
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Ah, thats interesting, I was not sure if the 1.8 had the M32 box, in fact one of the reasons I chose the Brera 2.4 was the fact that it did not have that box. Having said that I was told that the issues have been resolved. I would not crank it to 275 but 235 as per the Giulietta would liven it up a little. I would need to chat to somebody that can do the remaps etc.
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Quote:
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Ah, thats interesting, I was not sure if the 1.8 had the M32 box, in fact one of the reasons I chose the Brera 2.4 was the fact that it did not have that box. Having said that I was told that the issues have been resolved. I would not crank it to 275 but 235 as per the Giulietta would liven it up a little. I would need to chat to somebody that can do the remaps etc.
I was not able to find any info on m32 changes for TBI, though for sure I never heard neither here nor on polish aflaholicy.org forums about m32 problems in TBI. For sure there are some changes though (not sure how deep), as official oil QTY for TBI m32 has changed to 2.0l (2.3l was for all older). Also, even assuming that m32 problem was not fully resolved for TBI, I wouldn't cry too much, last year I fixed my previous 159 1.9JTDM gearbox, cost of 6 Timken bearings was like EUR130, cost of 3l of oil was 35EUR and cost of labour I paid only EUR120 (it was done by one of polish forum members privately, and without removing gearbox (he knows how to do this without removing it), so was much cheaper than in garage, anyway I'm sure that even in UK with higher labour costs you can likly sort it out in reasonable money, so that shoudl not be reason of stepping out from buying the car)

Just FYI, here is are dyno charts before and after mod (thinner lines are before mod, red is power, orange is torque):
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File Type: png Mod_TBI.png (82.3 KB, 34 views)
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I would take a look at a guiletta QV TCT as it's lighter than the Brera, if you could get the engine bhp above 240bhp, I've been thinking about one of those myself as a trade in
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Giulia 2.0

I've got a Brera and went to look at the Giuilietta QV a few months ago. The G is a nice car, but doesn't have the same road presecence as the Brera, so I decided to keep the lovely Brera and wait for a Giulia.

I was at Alfatune the other day in St Helens arranging a service and discussing Brera engines. Gus seems to like the 1750 engine in the Brera. Have a word with Gus to see what magic he could work for you in terms of upgrading the power if you bought one.
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Got a tbi brera recently, albeit with slightly high mileage. The engine is very well suited to the car, it has more than enough poke stock and apparently is able to get 235bhp with a remap. Mpg hovers around mid 30s on m roads at 75mph, though expect mid to late 20s for short journey and city driving, even just under 20 if lead footed 😃

Compared to the 2.4 brera(stock) it's a lot lighter and feels it when in the twisties or under acceleration. Am looking to Test drive the GQV next month so can't say how it compares.

Tbi Brera don't seem to come up often and when they do are priced quite high(as you've seen :P). Would recommend test driving one if your near a dealer/seller, it'll likely help you make a decision.

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They seem to drink the same as a V6 anyway because of the heavy platform they're based upon. It could be worth putting the money in a Q4 instead. Once you get your head around the road tax it all appears normal . Besides Q4's usually retail a little cheaper that TBI's
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v6 uses say 20% more fuel than tbi. tbi is much lighter, especially if we compare with v6 q4.
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By going off the figures from "TheHappyBear" they're the same. The only way to know for sure is if both cars did the same drive running in tandem with each other just as they do on the old TopGear, refill the tanks & do the MPG figures from there.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay19 View Post
They seem to drink the same as a V6 anyway because of the heavy platform they're based upon. It could be worth putting the money in a Q4 instead. Once you get your head around the road tax it all appears normal . Besides Q4's usually retail a little cheaper that TBI's
Unless there were almighty mistakes made when factory testing, not really.

Factory figures, which as we all know are completely useless in the real world, but are very good for comparison:
TBi: 23.9-47.1-34.9
V6: 17.2-35.8-25.7
V6 Q4: 16.7-33.6-24.6
The middle figures are the ones to concentrate on, being more of an 'average'.

The V6 is an old-school guzzler, the TBi just about acceptable by modern standards.
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As I said b4 lussoman, just going off 'THB's' figures he quoted from owning a TBi. I was expect bigger fuel bills, but then again my car doesn't get used for the Mon-Fri commute. But Me myself, I never go off the computer rather just how often I need to stop at the government taxation pump. I did go off the computer once on the motorway, with the cruise control just set right on a flat straight & was seeing 33.3 mpg. Then I hit the incline & that figure dropped as the car had to maintain pace, but as the car hit the decline it told me 99mpg for a sort spell????. I thought that's got to be wrong & probably not correct anyway, (like the air-temp sensor read 26 today in Manchester), to try to achieve figures just to say it can be done seemed more of a boring drive to me. I use mine as an everyday car, but the Q4 just isn't that. It's more than an everyday car. It's to thrilling when it's running perfect to be an everyday car. Even surprised me today entering the motorway off the slip road when I out paced two lads who was up for a laugh in a Z4 3.0i 262hp coupe. He came off at the same junction rolled his window down & asked " what's in that?" Me, just a 3.2, he said "turbo?" Hahah! He must of been surprised he got out done by an Alfa or something. Not to boast or anything, but that's why I don't care about fuel figures. I can't help having a blast
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Last edited by Clay19; 06-09-16 at 18:51.
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(Post Link) post #15 of 22 Old 06-09-16 Thread Starter
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The TBi seems to tick most of the boxes except two, availability and cost. I think I am almost convinced this is the way to go. THB's comment about trying one is valid, if as I suspect its a goer then I need to find a good one at the right price. Watch this space.
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As I said b4 lussoman, just going off 'THB's' figures he quoted from owning a TBi. I was expect bigger fuel bills, but then again my car doesn't get used for the Mon-Fri commute. But Me myself, I never go off the computer rather just how often I need to stop at the government taxation pump. I did go off the computer once on the motorway, with the cruise control just set right on a flat straight & was seeing 33.3 mpg. Then I hit the incline & that figure dropped as the car had to maintain pace, but as the car hit the decline it told me 99mpg for a sort spell????. I thought that's got to be wrong & probably not correct anyway, (like the air-temp sensor read 26 today in Manchester), to try to achieve figures just to say it can be done seemed more of a boring drive to me. I use mine as an everyday car, but the Q4 just isn't that. It's more than an everyday car. It's to thrilling when it's running perfect to be an everyday car. Even surprised me today entering the motorway off the slip road when I out paced two lads who was up for a laugh in a Z4 3.0i 262hp coupe. He came off at the same junction rolled his window down & asked " what's in that?" Me, just a 3.2, he said "turbo?" Hahah! He must of been surprised he got out done by an Alfa or something. Not to boast or anything, but that's why I don't care about fuel figures. I can't help having a blast
No self-respecting Alfa owner cares about mpg (DERV drivers do of course), that should go without saying.
At no point did I state the figures I posted were the figures we should strive to get - I said those factory figures were completely useless in the real world, but very good for COMPARISON purposes.
I haven't looked at the fuel computer on mine for about 5 years.
For a mixture of driving, the 1.75 is better than my 2.2 (not massively), never mind the V6!
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I think if your in any doubt, go and test drive them. Only test drive the V6 if its viable cost wise, as Im pretty sure once you've driven with that sound, your mind will be made up. My wife took one look at me when I test drove mine and said your taking this home then! The sound is epic! If your looking at buying a car that you will want to modify power wise to get to the V6, are you sure your buying the right model? Coming from Turbo'd cars (a VXR and a Giulietta Multiair), its nice but having to wait for the turbo can be annoying, none of that with the V6 and its genuinely quick when its in its stride. Ohh the sound!

Giulietta 170 MA TCT Business Edition/Spider 3.2 V6 Q4
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Have driven v6 Q4 and the 1.75 in the 159

Plus and minus points

1.75 surprisingly tractable and powerful for such a small cc, did a test at 1000rpm in 3rd to see how well it pulled higher gears at low revs and was impressed.

V6 has the edge though it's even more tractable and will pull 6th at 1000rpm although acceleration is only gentle in this gear

Performance is good, again for the small cc it pulled well and felt brisk, maybe not quite as brisk as the V6 but not to much difference considering the difference in cc

Fuel economy was ok, not a strong point but unlike the V6 not a big weak point either

Noise was nothing to write home about and while a good exhaust will no doubt improve things, the same spent on a V6 will yield even better results, the V6 is an inherently nice sounding engine the turbo 4 is not

Both the 1.75 and V6 are very smooth but the V6 has the edge due to the extra cylinders as you would expect.

I think if your not doing to many miles The V6 is definitely worth considering it's a good engine, but theirs no getting away from its thirst which becomes a bigger issue the more miles your doing, for those doing more miles the 1.75 offers good performance with much better fuel economy and while not as nice sounding as the V6 sounds a lot better than a clattering diesel.
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Quote:
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Have driven v6 Q4 and the 1.75 in the 159

Plus and minus points

1.75 surprisingly tractable and powerful for such a small cc, did a test at 1000rpm in 3rd to see how well it pulled higher gears at low revs and was impressed.

V6 has the edge though it's even more tractable and will pull 6th at 1000rpm although acceleration is only gentle in this gear

Performance is good, again for the small cc it pulled well and felt brisk, maybe not quite as brisk as the V6 but not to much difference considering the difference in cc

Fuel economy was ok, not a strong point but unlike the V6 not a big weak point either

Noise was nothing to write home about and while a good exhaust will no doubt improve things, the same spent on a V6 will yield even better results, the V6 is an inherently nice sounding engine the turbo 4 is not

Both the 1.75 and V6 are very smooth but the V6 has the edge due to the extra cylinders as you would expect.

I think if your not doing to many miles The V6 is definitely worth considering it's a good engine, but theirs no getting away from its thirst which becomes a bigger issue the more miles your doing, for those doing more miles the 1.75 offers good performance with much better fuel economy and while not as nice sounding as the V6 sounds a lot better than a clattering diesel.
From what I have been told the Brera and Spider got a louder exhaust from standard that is on the 159 (to do with the target market I would guess). Mine is certainly loud enough with the standard OE exhaust on my Spider, lovely with the top down.
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I have found with smaller engines in heavier cars you seem to press on that little bit harder, which uses fuel on A roads with traffic lights. The V6 does have a lean burn upto about 1700rpms which is designed to save fuel. It's enough to pull the car away smoothly , with nice gear changes without judder, keeping up with the speed limits 30-40mph right upto forth gear which would return the best figures using the stop/start button too at the lights. But just driving in general driving conditions, with a little spirited driving you should return 50 miles easy for 20 in city driving. Lots more on B Roads, & of course Motor way driving. I got from Manchester to Stratford upon Avon (120 miles) for 25 taking it easy at cruising speeds

Last edited by Clay19; 06-09-16 at 22:20.
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A Gus Alfa tune exhaust makes a lovely growl in the lean burn rev range, In fact at all times really. Gus said after 4K they carbon up some what which alters the sound. He said I've had Brera's back in with the exhaust that he fitted and suspected it wasn't his at first because of the growl it makes. Because the first couple of days I thought it was way to loud, quiet boomy too at low revs. I was thinking of putting the stock tail pipes back on. I actually phoned Gus back up and asked if he still had my stock tail pipes two days later after the remap, & exhaust change. He said they wouldn't fit back on with the new center pipe, it has more gurf than the stock center pipe for faster air flow. But after 4K, I couldn't believe how spot on he was with it
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(Post Link) post #22 of 22 Old 07-09-16 Thread Starter
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The v6 is not an option, some moons back I had an autodelta 156 v6, a totally amazing car, I still dream about it, BUT, it drank fuel like you would not believe. Then there is the Tax 500+, I am a poor pensioner, hence the 1.8 option. If I was to push the boat out, engine size wise, then I would buy a Maserati and forget the concept of food and heating.
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