159 Major Issue - Power Loss - Alfa Romeo Forum
You are currently unregistered, register for more features.    
 3Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
(Post Link) post #1 of 42 Old 27-07-16 Thread Starter
Status: Fully armed and operational tractor
AO Member
 
AlfaJoe92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: United Kingdom
County: Hertfordshire
Posts: 660
Garage

Member car:

159 1.9 JTDm

159 Power Loss diagnosis

Hi Guys,

Today I got a taste of Alfa ownership by breaking down, luckily only about 200 meters after leaving my work.

Basically car lost total power at about 2,500 revs in 2nd gear. Tried to start again, but wouldn't so I left it.

Engine management light was on, read it on the ODB ECU reader, PM055 I think, Exhaust Gas recirculation error.

Previously on the way to work today I noticed a power drop at around the 2,000 band mark, especially in 1st and 2nd, felt like the brakes where being applied when they where not. Almost felt like the clutch was going.

However during my lunch break got on the phone to Autolusso and promptly booked it in for an EGR delete. Dropped it off tonight, little ad-hoc but as its a daily driver and its very hard to make alternate arrangements to get to work, its an urgent repair.

Hope this can be sorted asap, do you think I'm on the right track on this one?

Note: felt like such a scruff leaving my car close to such beautiful specimens at Autolusso, did not have chance to clean it this week

Cheers,
Joe.

2007 159 1.9 JTDM - Argento with Full Black Leather
Wheels: 18" Multi-spoke in Dark Anthracite
Chassis Mods: Powerflexed front-lower wishbones
Engine Mods: DPF/EGR Delete/De-Swirled
Exhaust: Wizard Dual Backboxes Conversion
Lighting Mods: 6500K HID's & Fogs, Osram LED Conversion, Tri-Halo Conversion
Aesthetics: De-Chromed Grille, Brera Nose, EZ Lip, Biscione plate badge & Decals
Future Mods/ Fixes: Ti Skirts, Eibach & Blisteins

Last edited by AlfaJoe92; 11-11-16 at 00:22.
AlfaJoe92 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Status: -
AO Member
 
OldSmokey159's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
County: -kent
Posts: 250
Sounds like blocked EGR to me. If it is then it's a nice easy fix.
OldSmokey159 is offline  
(Post Link) post #3 of 42 Old 27-07-16 Thread Starter
Status: Fully armed and operational tractor
AO Member
 
AlfaJoe92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: United Kingdom
County: Hertfordshire
Posts: 660
Garage

Member car:

159 1.9 JTDm

Yeah hope so to, glad I had the funds available though, still a bit gutted they don't do DPF removals at Autolusso though due to the laws changing this year regarding MOTs apparently.
AlfaJoe92 is offline  
 
Status: Always working
Identity Confirmed
Authorised Trader
 
Autolusso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Bedfordshire
Posts: 6,492
Images: 222
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlfaJoe92 View Post
Yeah hope so to, glad I had the funds available though, still a bit gutted they don't do DPF removals at Autolusso though due to the laws changing this year regarding MOTs apparently.
It is not a change in the law it is that the law is being upheld and the government in their wisdom think it will save the planet

Main problem with DPF removal is not MOT but it will invalidate your insurance as it is an undeclared modification, you can't declarer it as it is an offence to drive the car on the road with the filter removed

We are doing a swirl flap delete as we have to take the manifold off as all the bolt holes on the manifold have had their threads damaged where people have been removing the EGR valve to clean

Ned
Autolusso is offline  
(Post Link) post #5 of 42 Old 28-07-16 Thread Starter
Status: Fully armed and operational tractor
AO Member
 
AlfaJoe92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: United Kingdom
County: Hertfordshire
Posts: 660
Garage

Member car:

159 1.9 JTDm

Ahh I see, I'd rather have the peace of mind knowing its 100% legal on the road so thanks for pointing that out and as its not a problem to me (yet) best not to fix something that isnt broken in this case.

Feel like I'm doing you guys at Autolusso a disservice by not letting you do what you really want to do to get it 100% operational and satisfactory, also feel like I'm not doing the car any favors, but I guess this is one of the reasons why people end up letting go of cars like the 159 and others, when the crunch happens, and with a family and other commitments cars tend to take the back burner. I'm just peeved at how when things go wrong its always at the worst possible times. Still fingers crossed.

Might be a Cheshunt to Dunstable train commute if all goes well tomorrow.
Cheers.
AlfaJoe92 is offline  
(Post Link) post #6 of 42 Old 30-07-16 Thread Starter
Status: Fully armed and operational tractor
AO Member
 
AlfaJoe92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: United Kingdom
County: Hertfordshire
Posts: 660
Garage

Member car:

159 1.9 JTDm

Quick update:

Drive home was great, responsive and with good power between the gears. Hasn't felt like this in months.

So to conclude Autolusso seem to have done a great job, many thanks, I will now start saving in order to be able to take it back next month for a thorough service, remap and 4-wheel alignment.

In conclusion one very happy 159 owner
AlfaJoe92 is offline  
Status: Content....
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: Bedfordshire
Posts: 266
What was it in the end?.
Fatsweaty is offline  
(Post Link) post #8 of 42 Old 30-07-16 Thread Starter
Status: Fully armed and operational tractor
AO Member
 
AlfaJoe92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: United Kingdom
County: Hertfordshire
Posts: 660
Garage

Member car:

159 1.9 JTDm

EGR Valve clogged up. They also replaced the Inlet Manifold gasket aswell which the threads had been damaged to bolt the EGR on. A Swirl flap was also missing that caused alot of concern, Autolusso did performed a swirl flap delete for me, however the question was where the missing swirl flap was. Autolusso (Ned) wanted to obviously be thorough and properly locate the flap to prevent any more damage, but given that I was already at the limit of my budget I couldn't justify any more spending. I did mention the previous owner had the Turbo randomly replaced before he sold it so we thought the swirl flap may have come off when he owned the car and damaged the turbo thus why he replaced it mainly because I had no immediate notification of a swirl flap being ingested into the engine or turbo (must be more obvious that just random power loss at certain revs, I'm assuming engine noises too?).

Either way very grateful because it saved me alot of aggravation being without a car, and obviously was a massive relief that the car was great on the way back home.
AlfaJoe92 is offline  
(Post Link) post #9 of 42 Old 14-08-16 Thread Starter
Status: Fully armed and operational tractor
AO Member
 
AlfaJoe92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: United Kingdom
County: Hertfordshire
Posts: 660
Garage

Member car:

159 1.9 JTDm

Warning

Hi again all,

Basically following on from having the EGR deleted, blanked and new manifold inlet the car had been running great, however today I was doing 90mph in 5th gear and I lost alot of revs and it dropped down to 70, no matter with the pedal to the metal, it was stuck at 70, the revs wouldn't go above 3000, there was also a slight tinge of the smell of something burning. When I pulled into work I revved the engine in neutral and the gears and it would not go above 3000, it sound a bit dodgy on idle as well, with a few very faint hiccups.

However after lunch I returned to the car, plugged in an ECU reader to see if there where any error messages, none to be found, but I cleared the errors anyhow. Started the car up, let it idle a while whilst I looked under the bonnet, then got back in and revved the engine. Managed to get it up to 7k and above revs, back to normal. However I'm starting to feel very slighly losses in power / over revving as described like a slipping clutch.

I have nothing to compare it to in terms of having driven other 159s, but like this morning driving to work, I was coming out of a 50mph traffic calming area on the A414, was in 5th from 55mph and I could not pull away from the Volvo that was on my tail, I was starring at him in the rear view mirror as I was flooring it, I did not realise I was still in 5th when it dropped from 90mph to 70 very quickly due to loss of revs. I feel like the car is lacking power at the moment.

Its weird because this is slightly like how the car felt before I took it in for the EGR delete, and after that was done, the car felt great, smoother, more responsive. But After the incident this morning I'm beginning to think the route cause of my problems is a slipping clutch / fly wheel. Either that or a Turbo on the way out, but then why would the car suddenly seem like its back to normal?

Autolusso did mention excess engine noises on the invoice sheet relating to a Dual Mass Flywheel, however at the time I checked recent service receipts and saw that a previous owner had clutch and DMF replaced no more than 1.5 years ago so I thought it would not need replacing so soon.

Any advice would be appreciated.

I've only done 7000 miles since I bought it, keep it between 1.5 and 2.5k revs mostly, don't ride the clutch either. I believe the Clutch and DMF was done about 1.5 years ago by the previous owner after he remapped it, but he returned it to stock map before I bought it and has done 40k miles between new clutch and now.

I was going to be getting a proper service by Autolusso this month but I think I might have to come to terms with having to get a new Clutch and Flywheel now. I really hope the bills stop soon I'm literally going to work to pay for the car in order to take me to work again to pay for the car Shame as I can't afford to do anything cosmetic as any spare cash is going to the running of the motor, which is except able however the cars need things doing externally or it will end up looking a bit weathered.

Cheers,
Joe.
AlfaJoe92 is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
V8VANTAGE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: United Kingdom
County: -
Posts: 72
That could be the DPF doing its regen, you do get a loss of power when this occurs as well as an odd idle. You get a distinct hum at lower revs as well. I know how you feel my car is acting similar, and I was hoping to get the alloys refurbished. But this has been put on hold for now
V8VANTAGE is offline  
(Post Link) post #11 of 42 Old 15-08-16 Thread Starter
Status: Fully armed and operational tractor
AO Member
 
AlfaJoe92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: United Kingdom
County: Hertfordshire
Posts: 660
Garage

Member car:

159 1.9 JTDm

You know I did think of the DPF regen however I thought there may have been some sort of dash warning. It may explain how after hooking up the ECU reader and clearing errors even though there was none, it was fine after this as doing a clear tends to force a regen I think.

Last month I was going to get ti sideskirts, something came up, this month was halos, service, alloys and windows but idk, might all go out the window, no pun intended. Hope not though.

Good luck with yours mate.
AlfaJoe92 is offline  
Status: 159 Cruiser and Guilietta pocket rocket
AO Silver Member
 
giblets46's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: Warwickshire
Posts: 4,319
Garage
Might also be a MAF issue, they seem to die around the same time as the EGR. Try disconnecting it and taking for a drive.
Otherwise take a look at the diesel power poss guide in the stickies, may give you some ideas.
giblets46 is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
V8VANTAGE's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: United Kingdom
County: -
Posts: 72
On this and a lot of cars there is no message to suggest that the car is doing a DPF regen. I believe a lot of cars only display a light if its blocked to the point it needs a forced regen or a complete clean or renewal. Some cars seem to just throw up a generic "EML". The only signs on these cars is the humming noise at low revs. Turbo boost gauge at or around 30mph in 3rd or 4th is 0 instead of 0.2 or 0.3. And the obvious reduced power and a slight burning smell that enters through your windows/air vents.

Someone is making a mod for the trip computer via the obd port so someone can tell when the DPF is regenerating I believe.
V8VANTAGE is offline  
(Post Link) post #14 of 42 Old 15-08-16 Thread Starter
Status: Fully armed and operational tractor
AO Member
 
AlfaJoe92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: United Kingdom
County: Hertfordshire
Posts: 660
Garage

Member car:

159 1.9 JTDm

Yeah, what you're describing Vantage is similar to what I experienced.

However I did some digging through the old receipts from previous owners, some interesting discoverys...

At around 70,000 there was a 2,500 gear box rebuild...

Then the last owner got a 'bespoke' Remap hybrid power / economy one but what really interested me was the 'DPF and ECU premium service'?...

It was 500 for remap and premium DPF service, but I'm wondering what the hell a 'premium DPF service is' I really hope its not what I think i.e DPF removal because even though I've passed an MOT I want to be on the right side of the law now. Also previous owner did state he reverted the map back to stock but the shocker was...

Literally 2 months after the remap, guess what... Receipt for new Clutch and Flywheel, 1,100 in total. Pretty coincidental that it needed doing so soon after the map. Bloke who had owned it since about 2013 had only changed tyres and pads up to that point.

On another random note; I had the car sitting next to a new white 65 plate merc today at work, whilst the 159 did hold its own from the front, the sides and rear look a bit 'lean', really urging to get the alloys and skirts / lowering sorted at some point as I really think this would bring the 159 into 2016 nicely alongside the newer Mercs and BMWs in my opinion.

Last edited by AlfaJoe92; 15-08-16 at 19:47.
AlfaJoe92 is offline  
(Post Link) post #15 of 42 Old 08-11-16 Thread Starter
Status: Fully armed and operational tractor
AO Member
 
AlfaJoe92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: United Kingdom
County: Hertfordshire
Posts: 660
Garage

Member car:

159 1.9 JTDm

Hey guys quick question again:

Had to give a friend a lift today and whilst driving I had a similar loss of power as described above.

Was about 10 minutes in, A-road, 100mph in 5th gear, then suddenly a quick loss of power, all gears lost power dropped to 60mph, no matter the rev, could not go any faster.

Pulled over, stopped the engine, waited a minutes, then restarted. Pulled away and everything was back to normal. I'm assuming this was because it went into limp mode.

Is this normal in the 159 1.9 for 5th Gear to be more a cruising gear than a pulling one? Usually I switch to 6th at 60/65 so I never get this issue, but occasionally on an overtake up an incline I keep it in 5th.

Bear in mind engine was probably still cold, as was coolant, so perhaps this is just a safe guarding feature?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Cheers.

Last edited by AlfaJoe92; 08-11-16 at 13:16.
AlfaJoe92 is offline  
Status: 159 Cruiser and Guilietta pocket rocket
AO Silver Member
 
giblets46's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: Warwickshire
Posts: 4,319
Garage
I try and keep it above 1,500rpm ( to keep the stresses lower on the M32 gearbox). Not sure I would be doing 100mph in 5th (I'd keep that to 'private roads' too
try the power loss guide, also check the boost pipes and the solenoid on the slam panel, loss of pressure could get it to do something funny.

Last edited by giblets46; 08-11-16 at 13:49.
giblets46 is offline  
(Post Link) post #17 of 42 Old 08-11-16 Thread Starter
Status: Fully armed and operational tractor
AO Member
 
AlfaJoe92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: United Kingdom
County: Hertfordshire
Posts: 660
Garage

Member car:

159 1.9 JTDm

Ok will do thanks. One day I'll replace the MAF / MAP as precautionary measures.
AlfaJoe92 is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
County: Zuid Holland
Posts: 75
If you had it in limp mode it should also throw an error code on the dash and store it, or?

Can't tell the difference between your 1.9 and my own 2.0, but what I experienced once and a bit similar to your findings, is going into limp mode (hardly any boost, so accelerating from a traffic light to 80kph took literally ages, people at my tail wondering why the hell I wasn't going faster). In limp mode due to a faulty temperature sensor sitting in the exhaust manifold, just before the turbo. Everytime I cleared the corresponding code, it came back randomly until I replaced the sensor. I would need to look up which code it was, but definitely pointing to turbo temp sensor.

(As mentioned above, the warning sign "keep car in motion" can be triggered by testing with MES for instance, but I believe it will only show after you broke off the regeneration process for the fifth time in a row. Btw aborted regenerations are also added up in the total number stored in the ECU data. But perhaps you already knew this.)
Leo_NL is offline  
(Post Link) post #19 of 42 Old 08-11-16 Thread Starter
Status: Fully armed and operational tractor
AO Member
 
AlfaJoe92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: United Kingdom
County: Hertfordshire
Posts: 660
Garage

Member car:

159 1.9 JTDm

I have no EML on or dash warnings due to this. Bare in mind I have my EGR blanked and DPF cored out so even if it attempted a re-gen which it should be mapped not to do, it theoretically can't do it.

My problems only happen when the engine is cold, within say 10 minutes and when thinking about, the exact same spot on my journey to work, pushing hard with a cold engine, 5th gear 90-100mph.
AlfaJoe92 is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Shropshire
County: United Kingdom-
Posts: 424

Member car:

159 Ti 2.4 JTDM

Sounds like it could be a fuel issue. Get a nice new fuel filter. Check the condition of the air filter, check all pipe connections that you can and then earth connections and give them a clean up and bolt them up nice and tight with a good covering of copper grease
jtaylor2005 is offline  
Status: New quiet lifters
AO Silver Member
 
halftone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: United Kingdom
County: Greater London
Posts: 1,326
Garage

Member car:

147 Sport Q2

Noooo. Driving hard with a cold engine is mechanical cruelty and causes premature wear. Also upthread you mentioned "Managed to get it up to 7k and above revs". I hope that 7 was a typo, or you'll need a dustpan and brush for that engine.

It doesn't sound like a clutch issue to me. If it was slipping engine revs would increase while road speed doesn't.

Are you getting black smoke out the back? Seems likely to me the turbo isn't boosting as it should, due to sticky VGT vanes or actuator/vacuum hose problems, or maybe you have a split or leaking boost hose. MES will show you if required boost and actual boost are not corresponding.

Otherwise MAF (try disconnecting it, see if it drives better but expect rough idle), or maybe lambda.
Chipmik likes this.
halftone is offline  
(Post Link) post #22 of 42 Old 08-11-16 Thread Starter
Status: Fully armed and operational tractor
AO Member
 
AlfaJoe92's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: United Kingdom
County: Hertfordshire
Posts: 660
Garage

Member car:

159 1.9 JTDm

All good suggestions.

Fuel Filter was changed last service 2 months ago, not sure about the air filter.

The issue has only happen twice like I said and both in the same place, same time of day, same less than 5 minutes I'd say engine running time. I'm guessing the engine just isn't warmed up enough at that point.

I was looking more for confirmation that 5th at 90/100 in the 159 was not correct proceedure i.e more of an overdrive gear? And 6th being anything over 65?

I'd just like to know why when cold an engine would cut back into a limp mode state when pushed hard early on.

I don't usually drive those speeds early on, actually I'd say it's the only two times I've done it that this has happened hence why I'm reporting the issue. Usually happens when I'm joining the A414 on the outside lane and can't move to the next lane, with someone up my arse at 50,60,70,80,90 and loosing track of what gear I'm in keeping tabs on what this persons doing soo far up my rear, then I get the quick loss of power and embarrassingly have to sulk off and drop down and move over.
AlfaJoe92 is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
County: Zuid Holland
Posts: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlfaJoe92 View Post
(...) Bare in mind I have my EGR blanked and DPF cored out so even if it attempted a re-gen which it should be mapped not to do, it theoretically can't do it. (...)
Just fyi mine has been remapped as well and EGR shut off, DPF untoched, but this hasn't affected the cycle of regenerations in any way. I'm not sure, but I've always understood that this cycle can't be influenced. As most owners will confirm, I never experienced any power loss during the (as always 10min.) spontaneous regeneration, only at steady rpm (no extra power asked for) the over-boost drops to (almost) zero and a deeper tone from the exhaust.

You could check this whether or not regenerating anymore by keeping an eye on the counter stored in the ECU. Just a thought.
Leo_NL is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Netherlands
County: Zuid Holland
Posts: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlfaJoe92 View Post
(...) I'd just like to know why when cold an engine would cut back into a limp mode state when pushed hard early on. (...)
As I can only speak for what my tuner confirmed, is that he set a maximum limit on power when the coolant is still warming up (for those who wouldn't or just would forget for once to respect that the engine should be warmed-up properly. Btw the standard equipped oil pressure gauge told us perfectly in the good old days of our Alfa's. This temperature limiter set, is a first requirement to protect against extra wear and tear.

Furthermore something what I experienced with mine this summer - at very high outside temperatures - that the coolant temperature almost or sometimes did reach 100 degrees Celcius (recorded in MES as the needle on the dash is electronically stabilized unfortunately, unlike the 156 for instance).
At high loads, full throttle from approx. 2k to 4k rpm, the engine was then noticeable hesitating around 3,750rpm. Just enough to notice and have a feeling it didn't want to go smoothly futher down the rev band. After checks by the tuner, he did confirm that this limit of 100 degree makes the ECU cut off fuel quite suddenly.
This doesn't explain your experience while the engine is in its warm-up phase, but nice to know.
AlfaJoe92 likes this.
Leo_NL is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Shropshire
County: United Kingdom-
Posts: 424

Member car:

159 Ti 2.4 JTDM

Thats good to know about the 100c temp fuel limit. However I could never imagine an engine to hard cut like that just because it's a bit cold. There would be very little difference to performance from a cold to hot engine. Not that noticeable that you can't pull up above 70mph. There is something wrong with the car we just need to work out what. I would highly doubt something like that would be "tuned into" the map as quite frankly it could be dangerous specially if overtaking!
jtaylor2005 is offline  
Reply

Go Back   Alfa Romeo Forum > Supported Alfa Romeo Models > Technical & Vehicle Assistance > Alfa 159, Brera & 946 Spider

Tags
159 , issue , loss , major , power

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
Replace with
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome