159 2.4jtdm in limp mode following cambelt change...and some other work... - Alfa Romeo Forum
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(Post Link) post #1 of 22 Old 23-07-16 Thread Starter
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159 2.4jtdm in limp mode following cambelt change...and some other work...

Hi guys, been a long time since posting...and yet again need some advice...

My 2.4 has decided to go into limp mode, refusing to rev over 3000rpm, following reassembly after the following work:

cambelt change, fuel pump removal and inlet manifold removed to both clean out inlet manifold and remove swirl flaps. Holes plugged and welded...

Have removed the egr and cooler, fitted blanking plates and made a bridging pipe in place of the cooler...(egr and dpf previously removed/deleted in remap a few years ago)...

she starts up ok...idles nicely and sounds ok...but is in limp mode and wont rev over 3000

have I ballsed anything up...or is this the result of me starting first time having forgotten to refit the aux drive belt...

any ideas/help greatly appreciated as always...

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Are any codes showing?
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(Post Link) post #3 of 22 Old 28-07-16 Thread Starter
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very confused...

ok then...

right I downloaded fiatecuscan, got a cable and...

came up as egr fault P0403. Initially this wouldnt clear...egr was removed from car as i had it deleted in a remap...however by plugging the egr back in i could clear the fault...

this still however hasnt caused the issue of not revving...

engine light is off but cant rev over 3000rpm...

could this be down to the timing being out slightly, or down to the fact i now dont have the egr in place, has it possibly lost its remap?

HELP!!!!

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Pretty sure EGR needs to be plugged in and blanked even if mapped out
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(Post Link) post #5 of 22 Old 28-07-16 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by nogrip View Post
Pretty sure EGR needs to be plugged in and blanked even if mapped out
Seems that way, i assumed i could remove it and clearly not. lol

doesn't answer why it wont rev over 3000 rpm though...

will recheck timing, and all boost hoses at them weekend, see if i have a leak anywhere.

other thoughts are the map/maf sensors, but surely they would bring up error codes if they were faulty...

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(Post Link) post #6 of 22 Old 28-07-16 Thread Starter
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incidently on checking the timing...

can anyone provide timing belt drawings for the 2.4 jtdm 210hp...

i followed the guide on here...plus i had cam locking tool in place, marked the crank pully and the fuel pump for good measure...

but the 2 lines on the belt didnt line up like the guide suggested they should...so fitted following my marks, turned engine over a few times and nothing hit...so could i be out still????
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(Post Link) post #7 of 22 Old 28-07-16 Thread Starter
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also before i did the work ( cam belt, inlet, swirl flaps etc...) she revved all the way up to 5000 rpm no problem at all...
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The egr needs to be connected even if mapped out, either that or the appropriate resistor in Its place. If blanking plates have been fitted, make sure there are no leaks. Even a slight leak will cause a limp mode, it did in my case anyway. When you connected the lower hose on the EGR, did the gasket go back in? I dropped mine initially and didn't notice, reaked havoc.

Worth checking timing but I would image you would get a fault code if that were the case.
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(Post Link) post #9 of 22 Old 28-07-16 Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by OldSmokey159 View Post
The egr needs to be connected even if mapped out, either that or the appropriate resistor in Its place. If blanking plates have been fitted, make sure there are no leaks. Even a slight leak will cause a limp mode, it did in my case anyway. When you connected the lower hose on the EGR, did the gasket go back in? I dropped mine initially and didn't notice, reaked havoc.

Worth checking timing but I would image you would get a fault code if that were the case.
Almost certain its not an air leak to do with the egr...the blanking plates have been instant gasketed in place, and I machined a plug to fit into and gasket onto the exhaust manifold, and that's defiantly not blowing. in a nut shell I have totally removed the egr cooler system from the manifold to the egr, and had removed the egr, but thats now sitting plugged in, on top of the engine...will re-mount it properly, while investigating what resistor I will need to totally remove it by bridging the plug.

can only be either boost or fuel pressure related I am sure...disonnecting the maf makes no difference...and disconnecting the map just drops it into limp mode again so dont think its them...thoroughly cleaned the map sensor with a loctite cleaner, which i have done before and not caused damage...and like i say they are not bringing up any error codes. May try cleaning the maf...


short of the inlet manifold not being air tight either in the two halves or blowing against the head...like i say will recheck all hoses and electrical connections starting tomorrow.

When I was disconnecting the battery to start the work I did have a very small short somehow...think spanner touched across, but it was tiny, and again have checked all fueses relays etc and nothing to report, so cant see it being the cause...

i hate being beaten. just mega confusing as it was running absolutely perfectly before I did all this...now its being awkward and I cant put my finger on why so am grumpy. It can only be something silly...
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May be worth running an earth wire from the loose EGR to the inlet manifold/engine. Not sure if it needs to be earthed but a simple thing to eliminate.
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(Post Link) post #11 of 22 Old 29-07-16 Thread Starter
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so this morning...

I have rechecked all the hoses and cant see a leak...i will change all the clips for jubilees once been to halfords see if that makes a difference...


rechecked the timing...against my marks and the instructions on the guide on found on here...and all is right...

still having revving issues...

now its doing this...

started by refusing to go over 3000...disconnected the maf and it slowly went up to 4000 ish...and got up error codes po101 and po111 which are to do with maf and iat sensors...
'
thing is its now temperamental, occasionally it'll rev high, but mostly its sticking to 3000 rpm, and I only get error codes if I disconnect the sensor... and when it is revving high...soon as you turn off then try to start again...back down to 3000...aaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggghhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

anyone in the derby area got a 2.4 210 that wouldn't mind swapping out the sensors see if it does make a difference???

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(Post Link) post #12 of 22 Old 29-07-16 Thread Starter
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update...

right then i have again stripped/rebuilt the whole thing...again...

now...

sat on my drive with the front on axle stands...itll rev up to 5000rpm...cant remember where she used to stop but least its getting there...

need to get the wheels on and take her out...

but a random one again...with my foot on the clutch she only goes to 3000 rpm...

and the boost guage isnt going anywhere near s high as it used too either...used to bounce right off the top, now is only going about 2/3rds of the way up before she drops down again...

still not getting any error codes, cant find any leaks...

any ideas anyone???

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I think the 3000rpm with clutch depressed is the limiter cutting in to prevent over revving. Get the wheels on and go for a blast - the turbo gauge shouldn't go all the way to the top unless you've got an insane remap
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ok then...

so after the last posts...i tried cleaning the MAF with some loctite cleaner...put the wheels on and took for a spin. initially...gutless. Not revving over 3000, and bugger all power...

then all of a sudden...blow me full bore grunt (I think...may just have been that felt alot better after nothing)...but revved all the way to 5000rpm and felt like it pulled hard. Turbo guage near on bounced off the top when under load... Gave it a good hard run in all gears to give a clean out after being sat for a month...parked up with a smile on my face of relief thinking it just needed the run out.

was away sat/sun morning so this afternoon when i got in thinking all was well...nothing again. revved to 4000rpm slowly. no error codes again...disconnecting the maf made bugger all difference... other than brining up the expected error codes

then on the 3rd start up (after running for no more than 2 mins so still cold...) up to 5000 rpm again... didnt go for a drive as was going out again...

there is a wire leading up to the turbo...what sensor is this feeding? Could the good running b a sensor warming up the working right. This has to be an electrical fault/issue. Ive ordered a new maf...what other sensors could be a potential issue as nothing is brining up a fault code...

cheers all

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(Post Link) post #15 of 22 Old 05-08-16 Thread Starter
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latest development

OK then all...here's where we are...

Fitted a new maf sensor.

Still on startup she wont rev over 4000 rpm, and disconnecting the maf doesn't achieve desired rev range. On going for a drive here seems no loss of power upto 4000 rpm, just wont go higher.

Last night when I fitted the new maf it didnt rev for a few minutes, then fired into full life.

this morning back down to 4000rpm again

But literally after just a minute or so of running it gradually creeps up the revs...so after a few minutes, when warm...it'll go all the way up to 5000, and seems to have all the power.

What sensors could be affected by her needing to warm up first? I have a new map sensor on order, could the cam/crank sensor be at fault...or perhaps the temp sender?

another thought...could the turbo be playing up? there is a very slight oil drip down one of the turbo pipes, but no more than I've seen on other turbo systems...could the vnt thing be coked up and need a clean...but when it gets a bit of warmth from the exhaust gas frees up enough to run properly...

any ideas greatly considered

cheers all

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Did it used to rev to 5k when stone cold before this work?
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(Post Link) post #17 of 22 Old 05-08-16 Thread Starter
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Did it used to rev to 5k when stone cold before this work?
Im not going to lie, I have no idea as I never sat and just revved it before doing the work to it...so if someone else can shed light on a possible built in warm up mode then fantastic. lol

just seems strange to me that it warms up and is fine, but from cold lacks the rev range. I know that you shouldn't rev the hell out of them from cold, but surely if it revs warm it should rev the same cold, if all is right inside it.

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Well, I've not specifically looked at this ECU, but JTDs & JTDMs do have fuel quantity limiters in their original map files which are related to coolant temperature. Its possible there is a 'soft' rpm limit based on fuel injection quantity when the coolant temp is very low, to protect the engine.

These may have been affected in some way by your remap.
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Originally Posted by Pud237 View Post
Well, I've not specifically looked at this ECU, but JTDs & JTDMs do have fuel quantity limiters in their original map files which are related to coolant temperature. Its possible there is a 'soft' rpm limit based on fuel injection quantity when the coolant temp is very low, to protect the engine.

These may have been affected in some way by your remap.
If thats true thats a clever idea, and would make sense. I have been driving round today and so far its running well. warm starts dont have any issues with revs. i will put the new map sensor on it anyway as its ordered...fingers crossed that i am now sorted.

i am interested to see how she runs after 2 or 3 days having not been started.

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Is the ECU reset "miracle cure" worth trying?
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Originally Posted by kandlbarrett View Post
Is the ECU reset "miracle cure" worth trying?

I have wondered that myself, but looking through the threads on here I cant tell if it works on diesels. I assume the reset any after market remaps...

That said it does idle ok, and seems to pull well once warm. I need to get it onto a rolling road I think to see what its doing, I have downloaded the torque pro app, which includes a HP calculator. I know its only a phone app but thats not indicating anywhere near what the HP should be...not even getting to the 210 standard (best was 137). Like I say I am not paying too much attention to it as it is only a phone app...

Time for the rolling road me thinks...I feel as if I have exhausted all other posibilities...

Also having read the ecu reset threads...how do you do it on the 159 where there is keyless ignition???
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as mentioned above there are limiters to protect cold engines.
here is the engine temp and fuel iq limiter map(off a 20v jtdm no idea which)
20v eng temp iq limiter.png
revs are left axis , engine temp accross the top and fuel mm3 are in the map .
you can see in yellow circle it shouldnt rev over 4000 until at least 70 ish degrees c and even just before 4000rpm the fuel is so low it might not get there.
once into the red circled zone you have fuel right upto the 5000rpm but it reduces again if engine gets too hot.
suggest you carry out any further testing at a consistant engine temp ideally up to 85-90c each time.

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