Has the 159 been a failure or is too early to tell?

[logic]

If anyone is given the position to choose between a gorgeous looking Alfa 159 or a well sorted out and over-engineered BMW 3 series... what will it be?

Look at company cars. The BMW 318d (with options) is like 4000 euro more expensive than the Alfa 159 1.9JTDm (120hp), and it will cost exactly the same when you lease it! The BMW is quicker, more agile, better build, it has the better driving position (lower), it's rear wheel drive. It a shocker to say, but it looks like the BMW is more an Alfa than what Alfa has to offer these days.

Don't get me wrong, I actually don't like BMW's. But since i have test driven both cars extensively, I have to admit that the BMW is just the better car and I wish it wasn't! So, this is my problem, and I'm not alone in this position. The 156 simply was way cheaper than a 3-series. If I could have the 1.9JTDm 16v at the same price as the 8v, then we'll talk again Alfa.

For now, it looks like I'm going for the beemer... and my heart is bleeding. The 159 is indeed a million times better looking.

[rarebear]

the BMW 3 is a better car, but the looks are horrendous, Bangle is dripping from every fold in the body, the previous model ( I drove an M3) is way better looking imho... but the image of BMW is such that they can sell a car looking like a dustbin as long as the blue and white is on it. The 1 series for instance looks as if it is bending in the middle (heavy german in it ? (don't mention the war !!!!))

[selespeed]

Originally Posted by logic

If anyone is given the position to choose between a gorgeous looking Alfa 159 or a well sorted out and over-engineered BMW 3 series... what will it be?

Without any doubt the Alfa 159!

[rarebear]

Hans ,je bent een echte Alfisti !


p.s. ik ben het met je eens !

[logic]

True, all Bangle BMW's look horrific. But once you drive an 1-series (coming from an 147), you feel like an idiot ever commenting about how expensive they are and that people just buy anything with a blue and white badge on it. Seriously, take it for a spin on the motorways, and you'll catch my drift. (drift? )

Don't wish to bend this discussion in an Alfa vs BMW thread. But the 3 series sells... it just does, and doesn't come cheap either. That said, we can still dream about RWD lightweight Alfa's, but when will they ever get it right?

[logic]

Originally Posted by selespeed

Without any doubt the Alfa 159!

And why would you?
Sadly enough, sales figures show the opposite... and you could try to find a reason why. Whilst blinded by an Alfa virus, that's probably a very difficult task!

Again, the BMW is more expensive, yet it will cost the same with leasing. That’s a huge advantage, and people tend to get the most out of their budget.

[Kevin Slegg]

Originally Posted by logic

If anyone is given the position to choose between a gorgeous looking Alfa 159 or a well sorted out and over-engineered BMW 3 series... what will it be?

The Alfa - but that isn't the only choice. One option for me is to say nothing meets what I want from a new car and hold onto mine. The problem being that I originally wanted to get a new car in September (but have now postponed that to March 2007) as mine is getting long in the tooth. But why spend £30k on something that doesn't meet your requirements or aspirations?

[Stori]

I know a lot of Alfa Drivers I get on with....now what about BMW drivers ?????

[Stori]

Well here is an Australian Video review of the Diesel 2.4 JTDm 159...

Video Review

Just ignore the dreadful NRMA advert that starts the video

[Kevin Slegg]

Originally Posted by Stori

Well here is an Australian Video review of the Diesel 2.4 JTDm 159...

Video Review

Just ignore the dreadful NRMA advert that starts the video

Quite a positive review - thanks for posting it.

[Gary Slegg]

Originally Posted by logic

The BMW is quicker, more agile, better build, it has the better driving position (lower), it's rear wheel drive.

I'm sorry, but with all due respect, I do think a lot of fuss is made about rear wheel drive. Unless you have over 190-200bhp I think that the supposed advantages of rear wheel drive are over-rated.
Indeed, for everday use icluding inclement weather, front wheel drive has a number of advantages. Okay, my MG will turn in better than my GTV, but then I don't use the MG in rain or snow.

[selespeed]

Originally Posted by logic

And why would you?
Sadly enough, sales figures show the opposite... and you could try to find a reason why. Whilst blinded by an Alfa virus, that's probably a very difficult task!

To me it is not how good a car is, it is what the car does to me. Brands like Alfa Romeo (and Lotus for instance) put a smile on my face everytime I get behind the wheel.

I used to like BMWs a lot but they have changed two things I don't like. First of all the looks. I totally dislike the Bangle creations. But even if the BMWs looked nice, I wouldn't want one. The problem with BMWs is that they have become quick cars that get you safe from A to B but all of that in a very clinical way. The emotion, the entertainment factor, the little things that make your heart beat faster they are simply not there.

[DavetheChemist]

Originally Posted by logic

If anyone is given the position to choose between a gorgeous looking Alfa 159 or a well sorted out and over-engineered BMW 3 series... what will it be?


For now, it looks like I'm going for the beemer... and my heart is bleeding. The 159 is indeed a million times better looking.

I'm in this position.... and i've chosen the Alfa. In Kiwiland there are thousands of beemers and I've never wanted to join the thronging crowd. BMW cannot engineer soul into their cars. Yeah, I know they make great cars but the bore me to tears. I test drove a 330. It was very good. On the way home 2 people in a 156 just like mine waved at me and I had no idea who they were. That would never happen if i was driving a new 330. Can't wait for my Oceano black, red leather V6 159 to arrive. I know I haven't made the wrong decision!!

[Kevin Slegg]

I have to agree with you. BMW's are as common as muck - but the people who drive them (and OK this is a generalisation and I accept that there are exceptions to this) seem to fall into 3 categories:

1) Arrogant t*ssers who have the 'I drive a BMW - so I've made it attitude';

2) Chav's (usually driving older models); or

3) People involved in illegal activities involving drugs who want a change from Mercs.

Sorry if the above offends anyone - but it is my opinion.

[Viking Dad]

Originally Posted by logic

If anyone is given the position to choose between a gorgeous looking Alfa 159 or a well sorted out and over-engineered BMW 3 series... what will it be?

Been there, done that , ordered the 159

Achingly beautiful car vs. a bottle of dettol IMO. Also, in normal everyday driving I don't think the BMW would be significantly "technically" better and it sure as hell didn't make me smile as much.

[Kevin Slegg]

Originally Posted by Stori

Well here is an Australian Video review of the Diesel 2.4 JTDm 159...

Video Review

Just ignore the dreadful NRMA advert that starts the video

Interseting that he went on about the rust (in Australia!!!! ) problem and the reliability issue. I really think that that demonstrates that Alfa has to address these perceptions in their advertising.

[Greek]

Well , for me there are 2 kind of people ... Those who want a car with most benefits and those who want a car because they like it...

Its a common facts that BMW has better cars than Alfa , i am sorry to say , but thats it. But there is a price ... They dont have attitude.....Except some special categories like M for example...
I like Alfa's because they have great attitude.... You have to spend time with the car, like a girlfrient or something... I havent heard any owner of a Mercendes to give nickname to his car for exmple.. i know tha my car has special needs and must give great attention but she will give what i want , emotions.... Thats the great benefit of an Alfa....

[SpiderS4]

On a recent trip to Italy I rented an Alfa 159 1.9 JTD for four days from Eurocar. Prior to this I had never seen a 159 up close before and when I first saw the 159 , I thought that this car looks like no other and has got to be a sales success for Alfa. It looks fantastic in black and the alloy wheels complement the 159's sporting shape. The styling is fresh, modern and sporty and makes the 156 look very dated. The interior of the 159 is a little bland compared with the 'wow' styling of the exterior. The seats are comfortable and the switchgear is well designed and easy to understand. The 1.9 JTD has plenty of power and when the turbo kicks in the car takes off like a rocket.

On the negative side, the air conditioning was faulty and appeared to only work when the car was travelling at speeds of 100km or more.

The two things I disliked the most were the positioning of the handbrake and the minture size and position of the ashtray which must have been designed by somebody who was very, very anti-smoking.

Overall I loved this car and compared with the BMW three series, I would choose the Alfa 159. The exterior styling wins hands down. The cabin of the 159 feels huge compared with the claustrophobic interior of the BMW. On the depreciation issue, I have heard some scary stories on BMW trade in values recently so buying BMW is not going to protect on that front.

During my trip to Italy I saw very few Alfa 159s but I still feel this car will be a sales success for Alfa.

[Alanmo]

I bought my 159 because of its looks. relative scarcity and the way it drives. Taking account of the spec and the added toys it seemed like a reasonable price and I was satisfied I would get good service from the dealer.

So the simple answer to the original question is - so far for ME the 159 is a resounding success.

The engine is excellent: the more miles then the quieter, quicker, more responsive and economical it becomes. It makes not the slightest difference if some of it is a GM derivative.

Frankly, for me, the fewer sold the better as it will continue to be different from the boring crowd for longer.

Residuals will look after themselves and if I get less back in a couple of years than I would from a BM then so what, every pleasure has its price.

The odd niggle about trim and finish have been resolved but then if I was not prepared to accept them I would have waited a year before ordering.

Evey car is a compromise to some extent. It should be lighter, it could be slightly quieter, better this and that. No car can please everyone but there has to be progress and the 159 is clearly superior to previous models in vital respects.

To say that Alfa has missed an opportunity with the 159 is nonesense. It's like saying BM have failed with the new 3 series because it doesn't look and feel more like the 159.

Different cars for differnt types of people and I expect those valuing the presence, drive and looks of the 159, and Alfas generally, will also be more independant minded and value difference above being part of a pretensious crowd.

It's a shame there are so many knockers on here since it's a damn good car which shouldn't be labelled, just enjoyed for what it is!!!

Alan

[Tee-O]

I saw a 159 the day after I started this thread...it must be an omen. But I can't afford one...

[Micko30]

Here in Ireland its dowm to the fleet buyers. 159's are not on the fleet lists. The 156 was removed from many lists because of problems with the cars and deprication..

Simple as that as most cars in this sector are fleet run.

Mick

[KoFFiE]

Here in Belgium, I see lots of 159's, they really seem to have hit the spot here. Every day I see at least 2 or 3, sometimes more than I see 156's... The Brera is smth else, you rarely see them around here, i've seen them maybe 5 times.

That said, I live/work in an area covered by a Fiat/Lancia/Alfa Romeo dealer which mostly sells/promotes Alfa (though he has a Lancia Stratos, rally version & colors - like this in one of his showrooms, fully functional), and he has 3 (rather large) showrooms. He has a pritty solid reputation. I drive by one of their showrooms every day, and I regularly see a few new 159's parked there which are then gone a few days later, being replaced by others. I see more of them there than 147's, which surprises me a bit. Every few weeks I also see a Brera come and go, but not that often (why would that be? )

[rarebear]

I saw a remark in this thread about the 156 being outdated !!!!
the 156 is now ten 10 years after the first drawing and still a headturner, not many, if any, cars have that style and looks !

[symon]

As much as I love Alfa's I would Buy the beemer if it was my money I was spending. If it was a company car I would buy the Alfa. this is where the 159 problem lies IMO. Private buyers are put off by tales of poor depreciation, while most companies will not let their employees have an Alfa. In the end it doesn't sell.

[hogansghost]

Originally Posted by Micko30

Here in Ireland its dowm to the fleet buyers. 159's are not on the fleet lists. The 156 was removed from many lists because of problems with the cars and deprication..

Simple as that as most cars in this sector are fleet run.

Mick

Completely agree with this. BMW make financial sense for a company buyer and they have a huge impact on their performance in the second car market.

I recently had to change my '98 v6 156 and, after scouting the dealers, found a much better deal on a late model 156 than 159 at the moment. These deals will die off and the price difference will become a lot less noticable.

As a side (but associated) point, I recently visited Spain and, in the same class as the Clio hire car, they gave a family member a 147. This is a massive endoresement of the brand and if Alfa can get more hire business, they'll naturally expose more people to the delight of driving an alfa when they expected to be behind the wheel of a Laguna.

I think the 159 is a significant step in the right direction with it's focus on refinement and safety - after all it is a family car.