Has the 159 been a failure or is too early to tell?

[the slipperman]

Saw one this morning and i thought they looked good in the showroom. Slightly retro style. when is it or the Brera gonna be on Top Gear? i don't watch 5th gear, has it been on that?

[Marcus_BR]

During the last 6 months I spent 10% of time in the continent on a combination of business and leisure trips, but there I saw 90% of the 159's I've seen so far. Even given the later launch date, that shows that the 159 is being more successful over there, but all the reviews it got here are positive. I am beiginning to see more IS's, and the 3 Series are now a rather common sight, but they have been around for much longer.

I think the 159 is gorgeous, but it is bigger than the cars I normally go for. My experience with my 156 so far is that I'll certainly consider going for another Alfa when I eventually replace it, and hope they will have replaced the 147 for something closer in size to a 156.

In any case I think it will be a successful car.

[Rob 156]

Whilst the 159 looks newer, I prefer the look of the 156. The brera to me looks beautiful but I'm not too sure if I would get one (back may be a bit cramped).

[bigredshaza]

I've seen one 159 and had a test drive before they were launched. Reminded me of a Honda.

I see you can now get an ex-demo for £4000 below list. I guess the discounting and crashing residuals can't be far behind.

[badgers_nadgers]

I saw a 159 four months ago in Meribel. I've yet to see one in the UK though.

[AntonySc71]

From the results of taking numerous test drives for a new company car in the forms of Audi A4, Volvo V50, Lexus IS220d and a 159SW (1.9jtdm). The Alfa supremed.
I was so impressed by the overall test drive that I have placed an order for one.
The emmisions of 162 g/km is about the same for the group of cars test driven, which is equivalent to paying tax on 22% of the cars overall price.
Kept away from the new Connect Nav + as the dealers selling technique was to tell me that I could buy my wife flowers using it or phone the police. For the extra £500 it costs over the standard Sat Nav I think that it's a hell of a lot of flowers.

[Tenk]

I also just test drove one this weekend (a 2.2 JTS Lusso). The car felt quick and light, handled very nicely, didn't make a very interesting noise (it was really super quiet). Prior to the test drive I thought they looked quite nice and in fact they do.

However, I'm a 33 year old, image concious north london professional, I am exactly in the Alfa target market and I can honestly say from the moment I got into the car everything felt wrong.... While driving it I felt like some kind of cross between a Lexus and Merc E-Class driver, it was a horrible feeling.

It is a far too refined car for an Alfa, it really doesn't break any new ground with styling it just looks like a slightly upsized and toned down 156.

So, in summary, oh my god no! I can not ever park one of these cars outside my house until I am at least 50 years old. It seems that once I have killed my 156 in about 2 years time I will probably have to buy a German car again.

Not only did I have this nasty feeling about the 159 but my wife also immediately vito'd me ever getting one on the basis "it looks like a mondeo and its definately a blokes car", now I don't know where she got the mondeo thing from but the 156 is definately not a blokes car and I can see where she is coming from with the 159.

[Gary Slegg]

Originally Posted by the slipperman

i don't watch 5th gear, has it been on that?

Yes, it was on a couple of months ago, they were luke warm about it

[AntonySc71]

I've just found a column that old Jezza did for the Times in which the following is taken. "unlike any Alfa of the past, you don’t have to machete your way through a million inconveniences to find the point."
and "First of all, it is exactly one million times better looking than a BMW 3-series. And with those triple headlamps, and perfect proportions, at least half a million times better looking than any rivals from Audi, Mercedes or Jaguar.
Inside, it’s even better. The driving position is spot on, the dials look like they’ve come from a Swiss watch and the quality of the leather, especially if you have it in red, gives the impression that it costs Rolls-Royce money."
With backing like this I'm suprised that these cars aren't flying out of the showrooms.

[Tenk]

Originally Posted by AntonySc71

With backing like this I'm suprised that these cars aren't flying out of the showrooms.

Jeremy is completely right but as always he's totally out of line with the actual public. Most people buying this sector of cars:

- are more impressed by cup holders than styling.
- fundamentally don't care about the car, only that it starts every day and eats as little as possible of their precious car allowance.
- think a 3-series would look better in their driveway because everyone else has one.
- actually probably doesn't feel cool enough to drive a 159 because it is a brave purchase, people will ask them questions about it that they might not feel comfortable asking.
- likes the way that <name that german> dealer treats you like god every time your car gets services.

Alfa has always had a niche market to some extent with the 147 the most notable exception. I don't think there will ever be a day that Alfa goes truely mass market, for me to like this Alfa enough to buy it would need to be a bit cheaper (otherwize I'll buy a beemer like everyone else) and a bit smaller because the size it is I'm comparing it with 5-series and a 1 year old 5-series seems a more solid choice.

[AntonySc71]

Yeh I suppose you are right with the audience that Jezza tries to reach, but it does give you something to think about if he gives a car a really crap write up!!!!

[felix]

I think 159's are selling ok , i have seen plenty on the road.....in Italy .

However ,I think that Alfa UK have a big job on their hands trying to sell the 159 in numbers , i think the car itself is fantastic , very well made and much more refined than other Alfas and a much closer competitor to BMW Merc Audi etc. But......

1.Has anyone seen a 159 TV advert yet ?? i havent. (at least not in the UK)

2.My local Afa dealer is down a side road in a building that looks like someone has fitted large patio doors to the front of a big house, they can only fit 3 cars in the showroom !! My local BMW,Merc and Audi dealers have showrooms that wouldnt look out of place in a hollywood sci fi movie.

3. There are a lot of Alfa dealers that have are also Fiat dealers, i dont dislike Fiats but it does tend to reinforce the image that Alfa's are just posh Fiats.


What im trying to say is that Alfa need to improve their image in the UK car market , they could make the fastest quietest most reliable and economical car in the world but if no one knows about it, it wont sell.

[Mjet]

As I've said already....the only other 159 I've seen round here is being driven by the dealers...I've not seen a Brera at all, I don't think they have sold any...

A lot of the problems (least that's how I see it) lies with the dealership, or rather the sales people themselves, the day is long gone for the smarmy talking sales person...Jeez when I went in to the local Alfa dealer I thought I would need a JCB (a digger) to keep the s**t shovelled away...The old style sell don't work anymore, least not on me. I am being kind when I say, that the gentleman did not fit the Alfa image....

It was almost comical what they offer for my 2004 156, the offered almost 2K less than what I was offered else where, As it turned out I ended up buying as a straight deal, after a Wally did a U-Turn in front of me....And I got a further discount to boot as well...

The difference between the two dealerships was self evident, no barrage of bull, no idiotic comments about my car, just a fair appraisal on its value, and a fair price offered...I had also found their servicing excellent on the 156....They did not miss anything.. for example I only went up to look at the 159 and they sales man spotted a bulb had blown on my 156 as I parked out front, it was replaced no charge.
Now some might say that's clever marketing, maybe so, but that's service, that's what they are like, that's how it should be..that's how you look after your customers.

I am not plugging these folks, but anyone thinking of buying a an Alfa, could do worse than give them a call Lismard I have found them very good...

I have met the local dealer in traffic and the look on his face says it all when he saw the name on the plate....Sorry Bud!!! but yes I took my money elsewhere...still haven't learned have we??? well tough!! Ahem... Alfa needs to re-educate its sales people/dealers, if they want to sell...

The 159 is an amazing machine, and I don't see it as a successor to the 156, the 159 imo, is the right direction for Alfa, but they have to address the stigma that is invariably stuck in the minds of the misinformed...And the current add campaign won't do it for them..
End of Rant....

[MrTC]

Originally Posted by Kevin Slegg

I have to agree with the general concensus, that Alfa have replaced the 156 with a car that is significantly more expensive, heavier, not as 'performance/sports' orientated, not as charasmatic (in terms of engine) and less fuel efficient (I mainly talking about the 3.2Q4).

I believe that it has been on sale in the UK now for about 6 months and, as I said in the 'Is Anyone Buying The 159' thread in the General Discussion section, according to Autocar only 600 159's have been registered so far!!!

I STILL have not seen either a 159 or Brera on the road.

Alfa need to do something desperately quickly.

Seems to me like there are a lot of people on this forum trying to justify their own cars (156s & GTs mainly) by making the 159 appear like less than the achievement it is for Alfa.

Yes, it is heavier than a 156. Then again, not being made out of tinfoil and being slightly larger does come with some nice extra's such as best-in-class crash ratings (compared to the 156's never-tested but probably worst-in-class), a much stiffer body resulting in a far superior ride (w/o trading in on handling) and rear seats that can actually accomodate two adults (my wife is still complaining about the time she had to spend 4 hours in the back of my parent's Crosswagon).

It's also worth noting that when compared to (recent!) cars of similar size and power, the 159 is only very slightly heavier (maybe 50 kg or so). That's not good, but when it means they can offer all of the above then I don't object. People apparantly want to imagine that their saloon car is a sports racer - forget it, it's not. Let it be good at what it's supposed to be (spacious, safe, good looking, well (though not superbly) built and fun to drive).

As for sales, yesterday I read a press release stating that Fiat group sales in Belgium were up 15% year-over-year. This was attributed entirely to the strong sales of the new Punto and 159. I'm starting to see lots of 159s out on the road, as many as some cars that have been around for ages. As a matter of fact, lots of people in my company are opting for a 159 (probably up to 40% of those choosing from the same list as me), as it's actually pretty good value as well (Alfa do still give nice discounts and leasing companies are estimating it will hold value better than the 156).

I won't even discuss which car is better looking, but suffice to stay that 'coloribus et degustibus non est disputandum'. All I know is that I've never driven a car that gets as many looks as this. The 156 is still a beautiful car, but Alfa are moving on and I don't see how they could have done better than come up with the 159 in this regard.

Frankly I think you're all a bunch of doomsayers, which is pretty strange considering how this is supposed to be a forum for Alfisti?

[NSJ]

I desperately wanted to like 159.I change my car every 3 years, and from the first press releases, was loooking forward to test driving one,more or less as a formality, knowing my car was due to be changed now and almost certainly would be replaced by a 159.I never considered a GT, as I have 3 teenage children.I had one for a day, and drove it for the best part of 100 miles, and found myself trying to like it, so much so that I got it again, and came to the awful conclusion that it simply wasn't for me. It was only at that point that I started to consider the alternatives and the GT sprung to mind. My previous post was most certainly not an attempt to justify my choiceof car.

[rosso130]

I agree with most of the comments made hear.. however.. Alfa have still built a car that is saying to those who look at it ..DRIVE ME.. and having gone to a glitzy 159 launch at a large show room in the midlands .. knowing the sales director well and listening to his reaction!
The place was heaving .. he says why have Alfa launched this car now?... the number of times that he had to tell people that he did not know when they were going to be available to them... he didn`t have any.
Why do they get it wong? is it the politics or the italians .. or both.

but I would still buy an Alfa ..... my 164 cloverleaf 24v never fails to impress me..puts the smile on my face.. and thats it really.. what you want .. not what the states say?

[selespeed]

Originally Posted by MrTC

Seems to me like there are a lot of people on this forum trying to justify their own cars (156s & GTs mainly) by making the 159 appear like less than the achievement it is for Alfa.

I am not trying to justify my 156, I really would love to own a 159, I really like the looks and how she handles. But we can't deny the 159 is not a succes. The sales figures say enough.

Originally Posted by MrTC

Yes, it is heavier than a 156. Then again, not being made out of tinfoil and being slightly larger does come with some nice extra's such as best-in-class crash ratings (compared to the 156's never-tested but probably worst-in-class), a much stiffer body resulting in a far superior ride (w/o trading in on handling) and rear seats that can actually accomodate two adults (my wife is still complaining about the time she had to spend 4 hours in the back of my parent's Crosswagon).

It's also worth noting that when compared to (recent!) cars of similar size and power, the 159 is only very slightly heavier (maybe 50 kg or so). That's not good, but when it means they can offer all of the above then I don't object.

We don't like the fact that the 159 is a lot heavier than the 156. But you have a point here, the problem is not Alfa specific but applies to the complete car industry. The 159 has about the same weight as the A4.

With the coupe Audi did a better job though than Alfa when it comes to weight reduction. The new Brera is 220 kg more heavy than the equivalent new TT

Originally Posted by MrTC

As for sales, yesterday I read a press release stating that Fiat group sales in Belgium were up 15% year-over-year. This was attributed entirely to the strong sales of the new Punto and 159. I'm starting to see lots of 159s out on the road, as many as some cars that have been around for ages. As a matter of fact, lots of people in my company are opting for a 159 (probably up to 40% of those choosing from the same list as me), as it's actually pretty good value as well (Alfa do still give nice discounts and leasing companies are estimating it will hold value better than the 156).

It is not hard for Alfa to have sales up compared to 2005. But 15% year over year is hard to believe (but maybe true in Belgium).

If I look at the sales numbers in The Netherlands, the 159 is not doing good.

In the first six months of 2006 Alfa Romeo sold only 937(!) Alfas 159 in NL. When I look at the sales figures from 1998 (5,379 Alfas 156) and 1999 (5,827 Alfas 156), it shows Alfa Romeo has a major problem. I wish it was otherwise, but the figures don't lie.

[Kevin Slegg]

Originally Posted by MrTC

Seems to me like there are a lot of people on this forum trying to justify their own cars (156s & GTs mainly) by making the 159 appear like less than the achievement it is for Alfa.

Yes, it is heavier than a 156. Then again, not being made out of tinfoil and being slightly larger does come with some nice extra's such as best-in-class crash ratings (compared to the 156's never-tested but probably worst-in-class), a much stiffer body resulting in a far superior ride (w/o trading in on handling) and rear seats that can actually accomodate two adults (my wife is still complaining about the time she had to spend 4 hours in the back of my parent's Crosswagon).

It's also worth noting that when compared to (recent!) cars of similar size and power, the 159 is only very slightly heavier (maybe 50 kg or so). That's not good, but when it means they can offer all of the above then I don't object. People apparantly want to imagine that their saloon car is a sports racer - forget it, it's not. Let it be good at what it's supposed to be (spacious, safe, good looking, well (though not superbly) built and fun to drive).

As for sales, yesterday I read a press release stating that Fiat group sales in Belgium were up 15% year-over-year. This was attributed entirely to the strong sales of the new Punto and 159. I'm starting to see lots of 159s out on the road, as many as some cars that have been around for ages. As a matter of fact, lots of people in my company are opting for a 159 (probably up to 40% of those choosing from the same list as me), as it's actually pretty good value as well (Alfa do still give nice discounts and leasing companies are estimating it will hold value better than the 156).

I won't even discuss which car is better looking, but suffice to stay that 'coloribus et degustibus non est disputandum'. All I know is that I've never driven a car that gets as many looks as this. The 156 is still a beautiful car, but Alfa are moving on and I don't see how they could have done better than come up with the 159 in this regard.

Frankly I think you're all a bunch of doomsayers, which is pretty strange considering how this is supposed to be a forum for Alfisti?

I'm not trying to justify my 156; as before its launch I had every anticipation of running to the dealer to order the 159; but I have to say I'm personally disappointed with it to date.

Apart from the VW Passat, the Alfa is appreaciably heavier than its direct competition - and whilst I accept that this might be because it 'newer' and therefore meets the current crash standards after the Autocar road test of the Brera I am wondering exactly how heavy the 159 is???

I also read that in percentage terms Alfa sales are significantly on the up; but to be honest I can only assume that this is because they did a 'special offer' on the GT. I've recently seen a load of new GT but not one Brera or 159. However, I've actually seen about 4 Chrysler 300C - what are bl**dy ugly and quite expensive and loads and loads of the new Lexus.

If the Brera/159 can't match those for sales then Alfa really are in trouble.

And sorry, I disagree with you - Alfa is known as being a 'sports' brand; with the 156 they certainly proved they can make sports saloons. They should have been able to produce a car that is safe, but still retaining the Alfa 'core' values of being good looking, charasmatic, good handling (with a chuckability factor) and with an engine which begs to be red-lined.

[Thrud]

When I was looking at the GT I also looked at the 159, my wife loved the look from a distance particularly the headlights and her question 'what is that' caused us to go and have a closer look. From the outside the car is beautiful can't deny it.

But inside its a bit bland and a bit of a dissapointment and compared to the 156 the seats weren't anywhere near as supportive, something which is very important to me as I spend 2 hours a day in the car.

I discussed this with the salesman and his reply agrees with much on the forum, the 159 has been aimed at a volume market and as such some of the more 'Alfa' areas have been toned down a bit, as he said if the company is to survive then it can't just rely on pleasing hard core Alfa lovers who look after and KEEP their cars for years so company cars are their target and they are very open about it.

Good luck to them I want the company to survive and I'd still have a 159 in front of an Audi and a BMW, however more money in the company, more money to develop a Brera replacement that I can actually fit in

However tehy really need to split the dealerships away a bit, ours is combined with Fiat and Kia and it doesn't have the feeling driving up to it that you've come to look at Alfa's.

The Lexus dealership owned by the same company and on the same sight is a whole different world, light airy clean and modern. Staff polite friendly unpressured and helpful. Only thing I regret about selling her lexus a week ago is not going to the dealers anymore (wonder if they will look after my GT for me? )

[Ralf S.]

You have to consider that the 159 is NOT "the new 156", even though it replaced the 156.

Alfa's most pressing issues are increasing the perception of the brand, improving quality and improving residual values.

That will lead to better sales in the long run, not bringing out a "new 156" that sells well initially but then fades away into residual obscurity and bringing in only a 22% repeat business rate.

So, the 159 is markedly better built, it will be more reliable and is aimed at a class that is "half-a-badge" higher than the '56 (which, to be honest, would struggle to match, let alone beat the latest Mondeo in terms of quality).

Alfa's expectations for the 159 are more modest in volume terms than the 156. It's been priced and positioned as more "premium" than the 156. It could be therefore that many 156 owners won't buy a 159 .. but then only 22% were going to anyway.

Alfa are on a long road and we have to be patient with them. The next 147 or the "Sud" will be the smaller more accessible car many here really want. In the meantime the '59 is probable going to be a success (as it is positioned, not necessarily in volume terms cf 156).


Ralf S.

[splashalot2000]

Originally Posted by MrTC

Frankly I think you're all a bunch of doomsayers, which is pretty strange considering how this is supposed to be a forum for Alfisti?

MrTC, I'm glad you like your 159 - good luck to you. However, for many Alfisti, the 159 doesn't fit the brand values. It's a lovely car, is drop-dead gorgeous, but it is just not a traditional Alfa. No gorgeous noise, no throttle response and no brio. For mine, it's just not as much fun to drive as it should be. I desperately wanted to love it, but the driving experience just left me completely underwhelmed. I too likened it to a Honda, but it pains me to say I actually preferred the Honda. Sorry.

SS

[Kevin Slegg]

Originally Posted by Ralf S.

Alfa's most pressing issues are increasing the perception of the brand, improving quality and improving residual values.

That will lead to better sales in the long run, not bringing out a "new 156" that sells well initially but then fades away into residual obscurity and bringing in only a 22% repeat business rate.
Ralf S.

That may be true but I would question the way they've gone about it.

People like Motorlogix (who sell UK sourced cars) are already selling it at £3k below list. As this is a currently new car, which does not seem to have been sold in large numbers (I haven't seen one yet!!!), it seems to suggest that the car is overpriced???

By overpricing the car, and thus the dealers having to heavily discount them, all this does is adversely effect the residual values. Thus a potential private buyer, comparing list price with retained values, gets a rather horrific view, further perpetuating the myth of poor residuals - therefore putting off private purchasers.

[felix]

Originally Posted by splashalot2000

but it is just not a traditional Alfa. No gorgeous noise, no throttle response and no brio.

SS

If you listen to a lot of older Alfa enthusiasts they think that anything built after the 75 (Milano) isnt a real Alfa because thats when Fiat took over !

[Joski]

I think the new 159 is in now way better than the older 156 predecessor. I can't believe that Alfa have decided to put proper handles on the back door and get rid of those beautiful tear drop mirrors. What where they playing at.

[rarebear]

the 159 does not sell period ! reason : in Holland people are Audi, VW and BMW minded German quality blabla..
personally I find the 159 to bulky and too heavy, the GM engine is a disgrace for an Italian car.. even with an Alfa head bolted onto it.
My 156 in Alfa rosso and SP2 with 17in wheels is a continuing pleasure.