The water pump issue.

[Karl_T]

Just wanted to ask about the problem with the water pumps seizing amd the subsequent head damage. Is there a pattern to it, a particular model year worse affected than others, or pattern of use. My 56 plate is coming up on 55k miles, and I'm getting concerned, but my local Alfa garage (Black & White) say its not a problem they've ever seen and think I'd be wasting my money. Confused.......

[coxy1]

There cheap to buy and only add about 15 mins to a cam belt change, thats allowing for a ciggy. Its happens to most, my be different on the V6. When they fail it gets expensive as it will snap your belt then smash every single rocker at around £16 x 20. I would change it now as its due by the usally rule of thumb.

[Autolusso]

Originally Posted by Karl_T

Just wanted to ask about the problem with the water pumps seizing amd the subsequent head damage. Is there a pattern to it, a particular model year worse affected than others, or pattern of use. My 56 plate is coming up on 55k miles, and I'm getting concerned, but my local Alfa garage (Black & White) say its not a problem they've ever seen and think I'd be wasting my money. Confused.......

2.4 159 water pumps fail and smash the top end of the engine regularly, we often see 2.4's with running issues following poor quality repairs. Get the belt and pump changed ASAP

We charge £400 for this job done correctly is it worth the risk? no

Ned

[Spider95]

Originally Posted by Karl_T

Just wanted to ask about the problem with the water pumps seizing amd the subsequent head damage. Is there a pattern to it, a particular model year worse affected than others, or pattern of use. My 56 plate is coming up on 55k miles, and I'm getting concerned, but my local Alfa garage (Black & White) say its not a problem they've ever seen and think I'd be wasting my money. Confused.......

Black & White should know better than that

Get it changed!

[AlexT]

This whole issue is a bit tricky..

With all due respect Ned, it's obvious that a garage would recommend a 400 quid job (especially when a good part of the bill goes in labour).

I've heard SO many different takes on this: some say 65k, some say don't bother and stick to the original 90k specifications (which AR never changed), now you're saying "do it ASAP" to a car with 55k?

I dunno man, there's a lot of induced scare on the matter I think, especially cos it's quite a profitable job for garages..

[coxy1]

£400 for cam belt, tensioners, water pump and labour sound a good deal to me.

[Knightrider]

Originally Posted by AlexT

This whole issue is a bit tricky..

With all due respect Ned, it's obvious that a garage would recommend a 400 quid job (especially when a good part of the bill goes in labour).

I've heard SO many different takes on this: some say 65k, some say don't bother and stick to the original 90k specifications (which AR never changed), now you're saying "do it ASAP" to a car with 55k?

I dunno man, there's a lot of induced scare on the matter I think, especially cos it's quite a profitable job for garages..

As someone who is going through the process of fixing a failed water pump at the moment I would say think very seriously about insisting it is done.
My 2008 2.4Ti has just hit 82k miles and I had it serviced a month ago, including a Cam Belt change - cost at an official Alfa garage was £950. When I enquired about a water pump change, I was told that the Alfa routine was to inspect and if there was no obvious signs of a problem, to leave it and replace the Belt/tensioners etc.
1 month later and after 2 hrs sitting in a layby waiting for the recovery truck, I have now got the car back to the garage. The water pump had indeed failed and, it appears, has damaged the Cam Belt. So, this time its a Cam Belt change AND water pump change - total cost £914. Ouch!!!
Luckily I have a warranty that will cover the mechanical failure but I think there is a salutory lesson here.

[lovelyred159]

Been waiting for this to come up as I had my my belts and pump done on monday at 39k and 45 months old. They showed me the pump, the housing had just started to leak.

[JON156VELOCE]

It is ridiculous that any garage especially an Alfa garage should advise against changing the water pump with a cambelt change, it is common practice to change the water pump with a cambelt change on most makes of cars now unless they are very expensive and not known to give problems..
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...v-engines.html (Waterpump/belt failure on the JTD 16v & 20V engines)

[Alfadisiac]

I had to insist that the water pump was replaced on mine when I took it in for cam belt last month... The garage were just going to change belt and pulleys, what's the point, they will all have to come off again in the beer future just to change the water pump! Kill two birds with one stone and get done with belt change...

[Spider95]

Originally Posted by AlexT

This whole issue is a bit tricky..

With all due respect Ned, it's obvious that a garage would recommend a 400 quid job (especially when a good part of the bill goes in labour).

I've heard SO many different takes on this: some say 65k, some say don't bother and stick to the original 90k specifications (which AR never changed), now you're saying "do it ASAP" to a car with 55k?

I dunno man, there's a lot of induced scare on the matter I think, especially cos it's quite a profitable job for garages..

The issue isn't tricky at all

Look at the JTD multivalve waterpump thread, read it, and digest.

[Spider95]

Originally Posted by Knightrider

As someone who is going through the process of fixing a failed water pump at the moment I would say think very seriously about insisting it is done.
My 2008 2.4Ti has just hit 82k miles and I had it serviced a month ago, including a Cam Belt change - cost at an official Alfa garage was £950. When I enquired about a water pump change, I was told that the Alfa routine was to inspect and if there was no obvious signs of a problem, to leave it and replace the Belt/tensioners etc.
1 month later and after 2 hrs sitting in a layby waiting for the recovery truck, I have now got the car back to the garage. The water pump had indeed failed and, it appears, has damaged the Cam Belt. So, this time its a Cam Belt change AND water pump change - total cost £914. Ouch!!!
Luckily I have a warranty that will cover the mechanical failure but I think there is a salutory lesson here.

If the engine itself wasn't damaged I'll add you to the 'near misses' section of the sticky thread.

To re-iterate. The waterpump used in the JTD multivalve 159, Brera and 946 Spider is the same used in the 147, 156 and GT. You MUST change it with the cambelt change and you MUST bring forward your cambelt/tensioner/idler change from the ludicrous change interval to at least 60,000 miles (ideally 48,000 miles) or 4 years, whichever occurs first.

[cdrewett]

Originally Posted by Autolusso

2.4 159 water pumps fail and smash the top end of the engine regularly, we often see 2.4's with running issues following poor quality repairs. Get the belt and pump changed ASAP

We charge £400 for this job done correctly is it worth the risk? no

Ned

What's up with Alfa? They must have known for years that their water pump is crap, why don't they change supplier or insist on better quality?
Maybe they have with Mito and Giulietta.

[lovelyred159]

I was surprised that having showed me a pump taken off that had started to fail, the replacement is exactly the same and still has a plastic impeller.

[AlexT]

Originally Posted by Spider95

To re-iterate. The waterpump used in the JTD multivalve 159, Brera and 946 Spider is the same used in the 147, 156 and GT. You MUST change it with the cambelt change and you MUST bring forward your cambelt/tensioner/idler change from the ludicrous change interval to at least 60,000 miles (ideally 48,000 miles) or 4 years, whichever occurs first.

Interesting, I wonder why garages charge different rates for it then

[turbonutters]

Originally Posted by lovelyred159

I was surprised that having showed me a pump taken off that had started to fail, the replacement is exactly the same and still has a plastic impeller.

Most manufacturers use plastic impellers so that's not strange.
And most of them suffer the same problem as the Alfa's.

[AlexT]

Originally Posted by Spider95

The issue isn't tricky at all

Look at the JTD multivalve waterpump thread, read it, and digest.

would you mind pointing me to it? Can't seem to find it.

I just think that changing a water pump and cambelt at 55k is a bit OTT.
I mean, you open it, you inspect the water pump, and if there are signs of it needing to be changed then fair enough, but changing it regardless is a bit ludicrous.

[Spider95]

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...v-engines.html (Waterpump/belt failure on the JTD 16v & 20V engines)

[Spider95]

Originally Posted by lovelyred159

I was surprised that having showed me a pump taken off that had started to fail, the replacement is exactly the same and still has a plastic impeller.

The plastic impellar isn't usually the problem (unless yours were actually failing). The problem is with the bearings inside the pump. These seize up, shredding the cambelt.

Some of the pumps begin to leak prior to failure, others fail suddenly. There's no obvious 'science' to it, except to say it isn't a particularly strong or robust unit.

Read through the link above and you'll see what I mean.

Give me your age/mileage and I'll add you to the 'near misses' list.

[bikemat]

I just replaced mine at 5.5yrs and 60000km (about 40k miles).
The belt looked unworn, almost like it'd already been changed.
The pump had just started to leak.
Given it's an expensive job to do because of the labour time, I figure might as well just put in a replacement pump - they're cheap and it only takes an extra 10mins. Especially given there have been many examples of the pump failing causing expensive damage.

[cj romeo]

Originally Posted by AlexT

would you mind pointing me to it? Can't seem to find it.

I just think that changing a water pump and cambelt at 55k is a bit OTT.
I mean, you open it, you inspect the water pump, and if there are signs of it needing to be changed then fair enough, but changing it regardless is a bit ludicrous.

...I think you have been well warned, for all it costs, it's a waste of time 'inspecting' it as you assess the bearing unless its really bad and failure is imminent.

[AlexT]

so what would the next change be? After other 4 years?

Are you guys sure the 159/Brera water pumps are the same of the GTV/156/147? The prices are quite different.

[lovelyred159]

Originally Posted by Spider95

The plastic impellar isn't usually the problem (unless yours were actually failing). The problem is with the bearings inside the pump. These seize up, shredding the cambelt.

Some of the pumps begin to leak prior to failure, others fail suddenly. There's no obvious 'science' to it, except to say it isn't a particularly strong or robust unit.

Read through the link above and you'll see what I mean.

Give me your age/mileage and I'll add you to the 'near misses' list.

57 and I've been around the block a few times.....39.5k and 46 months old!

[Spider95]

Originally Posted by lovelyred159

57 and I've been around the block a few times.....39.5k and 46 months old!

ok thanks added to 'near misses'.

[Spider95]

Originally Posted by AlexT

so what would the next change be? After other 4 years?

Are you guys sure the 159/Brera water pumps are the same of the GTV/156/147? The prices are quite different.

Same engines. The dealer has quoted me the same part number.