1.9 JTDM Engine Noise

#1 (**Post Link**) 07-06-12

Alfa jtdm knock - YouTube
The link above is a my 2006 1.9 JTDM cold start
fully serviced
new clutch and flywheel
Ignore the loud clunks thats the mic picking up the interior noise.
Car is idling then 1st and 2nd gear road noise becomes to much after
Ignore the turbo whine and power steering as well
I an after comments on the idle sound and the slappy tap sound when accelerating.
All acceleration is from idle to 2200 RPM max.
Is this normal or is there an issue here?
I have never had this engine before.
My previous diesels have been Audi PD's and Volvo 1.6d (the one found in the new volvos)
And non have sounded this "wrong"
is this how the jtdm engine sounds
car does 50mpg going to work
new inlet manifold and restrictive gaskets on egr which is also clean and free
no error codes
apologies for interior noise this is off a mobile
1 minute in might be a good part to start.
The ripplely noise is the rubber case on the phone - its the engine metallic noise.
Car is sometimes a bit hesitent in low revs
no remaps
dpf still on car
150 BHP version
Thanks

#2 (**Post Link**) 07-06-12

Should say noise does go slightly when warmed up but never fully disappears
car has had new injectors at 70000 miles - it made no difference - the ones in the picture are for sale if anybody is interested!
valve treatment has been added when i brought the car and has new correct oil.
gearbox oil has been changed and fuel filter is new and verious treatments have been added.
FES shows acceptable injection correction

Tricolori · #3 (**Post Link**) 07-06-12

It sounds like a bag of s**t!

They are a little tappety but i've never come across this sound.
What oil did you put in it?

#4 (**Post Link**) 07-06-12

Originally Posted by Tricolori

It sounds like a bag of s**t!

They are a little tappety but i've never come across this sound.
What oil did you put in it?

5w-40 valvoline fully synthetic with correct ash grade.
Haven't done a compression test.
was wondering if a hydraulic valve is sticking or broken.
Or can a egr do this even if it appears fine
Would be good if someone could get the same recording from their car to compare

Tricolori · #5 (**Post Link**) 08-06-12

My car is sometimes rough when going through a regen. It sounds more hydraulic to me. Is the sound the same when your outside the car next to the bonnet?

I would recommend you taking it to a good independent Alfa specialist and see what they have to say.

Seems to be a bit of turbo whine on yours too which I don't get and mine has done 50k.

#6 (**Post Link**) 08-06-12

Originally Posted by Tricolori

My car is sometimes rough when going through a regen. It sounds more hydraulic to me. Is the sound the same when your outside the car next to the bonnet?

I would recommend you taking it to a good independent Alfa specialist and see what they have to say.

Seems to be a bit of turbo whine on yours too which I don't get and mine has done 50k.

Not bothered about the turbo whine as there is plenty of evidence to discard the noise as a sound of failure. An equal amount of turbos fail with no warning and plenty drive round for years making noise.

The recording Does make the car sound worse.
Outside at idle it Sounds a bit tappy. I can cope with that.
It's the slap sound under load that Bothers me.
I just need to hear a few more examples of the engine.
I do wonder about the egr as its a bit better since fitting the restrictive gaskets.
Hard to experiment though as it goes into limp home mode far to quick if you pull the plug

cj romeo · #7 (**Post Link**) 08-06-12

That sounds awful mate, no idea though, its definitely not injectors.

coxy1 · #8 (**Post Link**) 08-06-12

Take it some where quick. If it was a loud tapping sound I would say you have a broken rocker. If its more of a slapping sound could be that you have a dead con rod shell and the slapping is the piston hitting the head. Has it be ran low on oil ever do you know ? Hope its none of these as its very hard to hear on a phone recording, Can't see how to egr would have anything to do it.

#9 (**Post Link**) 08-06-12

Originally Posted by coxy1

Take it some where quick. If it was a loud tapping sound I would say you have a broken rocker. If its more of a slapping sound could be that you have a dead con rod shell and the slapping is the piston hitting the head. Has it be ran low on oil ever do you know ? Hope its none of these as its very hard to hear on a phone recording, Can't see how to egr would have anything to do it.

Will go get a compression test tomorrow morning. If There is a broken rocker or shell it Will show up. It's a shame you have to lift the cams from the car to inspect the valve gear otherwise I would have looked already.

t3yls · #10 (**Post Link**) 08-06-12

On my 1.9Jtdm it was making a ticking noise which would increase with the revs ...found out it was a stripped cambelt and it was catching on something as it rotated round. caught it before it snapped

just thought i'd throw it in as it was a bit unusual

you're welcome to have a listen to mine if you're around north manchester

#11 (**Post Link**) 08-06-12

Originally Posted by t3yls

On my 1.9Jtdm it was making a ticking noise which would increase with the revs ...found out it was a stripped cambelt and it was catching on something as it rotated round. caught it before it snapped

just thought i'd throw it in as it was a bit unusual

you're welcome to have a listen to mine if you're around north manchester

Thanks but your a bit far traffic wise.
Cam belt is new as it was me who fitted it. Even double checked timing with proper locking tools.
Tappy noise was There before I did the job

AL159 · #12 (**Post Link**) 08-06-12

I used to have a 1.9jtdm 159ti from new - it developed a similar sound , but only when cold and it turned out to be the fuel pump ( which is located behind the front os bumper) so may be worthwhile asking about this if engine internals turn out to be ok.

#13 (**Post Link**) 08-06-12

Originally Posted by AL159

I used to have a 1.9jtdm 159ti from new - it developed a similar sound , but only when cold and it turned out to be the fuel pump ( which is located behind the front os bumper) so may be worthwhile asking about this if engine internals turn out to be ok.

Theres no fuel pump behind the bumper.
Do you mean the high pressure pump that is driven of the cambelt on the top of the engine?

coxy1 · #14 (**Post Link**) 08-06-12

Originally Posted by jameshughes1974

Will go get a compression test tomorrow morning. If There is a broken rocker or shell it Will show up. It's a shame you have to lift the cams from the car to inspect the valve gear otherwise I would have looked already.

If you have a broken rocker a compression test will not so this as the valve will be shut. Also I dont think the compression test will show if you have a failing shell either.
Hope you get to the bottom and get it sorted.

#15 (**Post Link**) 08-06-12

Originally Posted by coxy1

If you have a broken rocker a compression test will not so this as the valve will be shut. Also I dont think the compression test will show if you have a failing shell either.
Hope you get to the bottom and get it sorted.

Thats true thinking about it!

coxy1 · #16 (**Post Link**) 08-06-12

Originally Posted by jameshughes1974

Thats true thinking about it!

Another suggestion to try and track it down is the old long screw driver on the skull trick. Placing the screwdriver on different parts of the engine carefully while it ticks over and press the other end on your skull next to your ear, acts like a stethascope ( i know i cant spell which is why a draw pictures for a living ) at the doctors so at least you can narrow down when the noise is coming from.

#17 (**Post Link**) 08-06-12

Originally Posted by coxy1

Another suggestion to try and track it down is the old long screw driver on the skull trick. Placing the screwdriver on different parts of the engine carefully while it ticks over and press the other end on your skull next to your ear, acts like a stethascope ( i know i cant spell which is why a draw pictures for a living ) at the doctors so at least you can narrow down when the noise is coming from.

Yep tried that one - the neighbours now think i am a bit odd- Not Autistic but on the register!!
Will try it again as i had it on the injectors only.
Car does sound ok at higher revs and idle sounds ok.
i can see why people rave on about egr deletes. for the 500 yards or so before it goes into limp home the car is wonderfuly smooth and responsive in low revs when i pulled the electrical connector from it. diddnt realy change the slap sound though.
I am also speculating on the gearbox but thats just me - perhaps the primary shaft(1st,2nd3rd) is worn. Hope not though as having done a dmf and clutch on the car i know what a pig a gearbox change would be - having said that i reckon i would have it done in 7 hours - just not up for it at the moment.
grasping at straws i will also try running the car with no aux belt on - this will tell me if the crank pulley is stuffed - they can knock around when the rubber has perished.
I also need to drop silicon in the gaps on the dog bone mounts off the back of the engine and gearbox just to eliminate that - there is a bit of movement in the gearstick when coming on and off throttle.

coxy1 · #18 (**Post Link**) 08-06-12

[QUOTE= i will also try running the car with no aux belt on - this will tell me if the crank pulley is stuffed - they can knock around when the rubber has perished..[/QUOTE]

Having just done the oil pump on mine where is this rubber on the crank pulley ? The cam pulley is fastened straight in to the crank, left hand thread, then the aux pulley is bolted to that, on mine any way. No rubber.

#19 (**Post Link**) 08-06-12

Originally Posted by coxy1

Having just done the oil pump on mine where is this rubber on the crank pulley ? The cam pulley is fastened straight in to the crank, left hand thread, then the aux pulley is bolted to that, on mine any way. No rubber.

sorry i mean the aux pulley which is bolted to the end of the crankshaft cog
they can look ok but the rubber band can get quite a wobble on it if they fail - Only looking because a trawl of the net found a fiat with the 1.9 engine changed his and a knock went away.

I see you took a 2.4 cam/rocker assembly apart - are there any gotchas on this.

coxy1 · #20 (**Post Link**) 08-06-12

Originally Posted by jameshughes1974

sorry i mean the aux pulley which is bolted to the end of the crankshaft cog
they can look ok but the rubber band can get quite a wobble on it if they fail - Only looking because a trawl of the net found a fiat with the 1.9 engine changed his and a knock went away.

I see you took a 2.4 cam/rocker assembly apart - are there any gotchas on this.

Taken most of the engine apart now, had both the top and bottom off. Failed rocker killed the oil pump. If you have done a clutch rocker off is quite straight forward, just lock the cam and crank off with the propper tools as its a cam belt off job, and remember there is a bolt by the cam pully which bolts into the rocker horizontally.

#21 (**Post Link**) 08-06-12

Originally Posted by coxy1

Taken most of the engine apart now, had both the top and bottom off. Failed rocker killed the oil pump. If you have done a clutch rocker off is quite straight forward, just lock the cam and crank off with the propper tools as its a cam belt off job, and remember there is a bolt by the cam pully which bolts into the rocker horizontally.

Thanks
Not sure much will happen this weekend - rain will stop play and living close to oulton park I might go see the touring cars sunday - always fun in the wet

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