2.2 JTS hesitation - now with new IMPORTANT information & escalation details

[loveivs]

Originally Posted by jsfletcher159

Has anyone tryed an air filter/air intake change? I understand K and N do a filter and ITG do an air intake.

I was talking to Angel Tuning yesterday and they seemed to indicate it was an air intake problem as much as anything else and recommended the ITG as well as a remap.

Just a thought.

Only 400 miles on the clock of my new 159 so I think it is too early for me to take action yet!

I got the itg intake fitted last week. It helps a bit with the hesitation issue, but the prob is still there. You can't expect an air intake to get rid of the "characteristic".

I also got mid and rear muffler changed. I'm looking forward to get the AD remap done in next few weeks.

[jsfletcher159]

Originally Posted by Fraser

I was talking to a mate at the weekend who was relating the story of a Mondeo 2.0 hire car he had and how it had a huge hole in the power delivery at pick up. This nearly caused an artic to run into the back of him after pulling away at a roundabout. He had to dip the clutch and give the throttle more beans to get the car going.

I'm wondering if these issues are also related to pollution control or fuel economy and the manufacturers are struggling to balance power delivery and performance in these areas.

That is exactly what Nigel at Angel Tuning said the problem is. Basically the engine mapping has to accomodate power/emissions and the different climates of the countries where the cars are sold.

By the way, my 159 is loosening up and the hesitation (more flats spots actually) are starting to be less pronounced.

I notice a few folks on here have had their 1.9 JTDms remapped by Angel; are there any 2.2 JTS owners who have used Angel for remapping and what are the results like?

[coolsociety]

Hi folks.

I have come on here because I'm looking to replace my BMW with a 159 or Brera 2.2 (prefer the looks of the Brera but the 159 would be more pratical). I do 20k+ miles a year but the first 15 minutes of every day is spent in heavy, slow moving stop/start traffic dropping the missus off at work and several stop-offs in town in between motorways so this problem is very important to me especially given that my nearest dealer is a 110-mile round trip and AD being a 500+ mile round trip. I can't affod new so would be looking at an approved used model.

I have read every single word of this thread and I'm astonished that it has gone from oficially complaining, or being encouraged to do so, to members now being advised to get a remap. Given that many UK dealers are acknowledging there is a problem, and that they are a wholly-owned subsiduary of AR, has anybody considered getting the remap done then issuing a county court claim against either the dealer (especially if he has ackowledged that there is a problem), or against AR directly for the cost of getting the remap done to cure the problem? I certainly think it might be worth a try, possibly contacting AR first under threat of reporting it to the motoring press. Surely the threat bad publicity from a court case would be the last thing AR need? There certainly seems to be plenty of 'evidence' to go at.

I'm not sure whether AR actually care or not, but the low number of people that have actually complained combined with a fair number of people stating that they are generally happy with the car and that they would not be put off buying another one in future, especially one with the same engine, and you can easily understand AR's apathy.

In contrast, three weeks after buying my £9,000 approved used BMW (which was 4 years old at the time) I complained about a similar flat spot at low revs and they replaced the valves AT THEIR SUGGESTION free of charge and gave me a new 530i as a courtesy car for a week. I don't really care what other people think of BM's (or any other car I may choose for that matter), it's a great car and I'm only really looking to change because I have back problems and the seat doesn't suit me. I had set my heart on the 2.2 but do I really want to change to a potentially problematic AR with my main dealer 110 miles round-trip away and a disinterested parent company if this is how customers are treated? I'm now having VERY serious doubts.

[Fraser]

Originally Posted by coolsociety

Given that many UK dealers are acknowledging there is a problem, and that they are a wholly-owned subsiduary of AR,

Just a point to note - the dealers are franchise-based and are not owned by AR.

[coolsociety]

So who owns the franchise?

[GCDBONES123]

Originally Posted by coolsociety

So who owns the franchise?

Whoever wants one basically. Its no different from buying a MacDonalds or KFC franchise. Dont know the exact specifics of how it works but any individual can apply for a franchise and then has to stumps up the cash to provide premises etc. Im sure AR inspect the premises and facilities and the franschised dealer has to adopt ARUK standards. The key difficulty is that this creates diecrepancies between each dealers service. They all get a standard price for a job from ARUK but may choose to go the extra mile or not at their own cost. (Or discount a car) Its all fairly standard really, i think most manufacturers adopt a similar system, at the end of the day if ARUK stumped up the cash to get things fixed when they go wrong a s they should under warranty then all dealers would welcome you and your niggles rather than hiding under the desk

[Pud237]

I think coolsociety meant ARUK is a wholy owned subsidiary of AR Italy, instead of being a private importer such as Ateco in Oz.

[coolsociety]

Originally Posted by Pud237

I think coolsociety meant ARUK is a wholy owned subsidiary of AR Italy, instead of being a private importer such as Ateco in Oz.

Yes that's exactly what I'm getting at.

The thing is I honestly believe that anybody getting the remap done which cured a problem that led to a possible accident scenario would have a decent chance of winning, particularly on a new car. Something would probably be needed in writing from the dealer, or from, say, AD, and given the costs involved and the potential costs to fight the case (full costs are not usually awarded in a small claims court), AR might not even contest it and it might be worth looking into.

I'm jus trying to suggest a possible alternative for those who are disgruntled at having to pay it - I would be. Although I won't be replaceing my current car just yet this situation might just be enough to put me off buying AR and if nothing else it's something they should be taking more seriously given that they are trying to shed their shoddy image.

[Nev]

Over the weekend mate reports similar known problems with a diesel Passat.
"It's the eco set up of the engine management." says VW.

Plot thickens.

[Fraser]

Originally Posted by Nev

Over the weekend mate reports similar known problems with a diesel Passat.
"It's the eco set up of the engine management." says VW.

Plot thickens.

INteresting - see my post no 800 on page 32.

[coolsociety]

Originally Posted by Fraser

I was talking to a mate at the weekend who was relating the story of a Mondeo 2.0 hire car he had and how it had a huge hole in the power delivery at pick up. This nearly caused an artic to run into the back of him after pulling away at a roundabout. He had to dip the clutch and give the throttle more beans to get the car going.

I'm wondering if these issues are also related to pollution control or fuel economy and the manufacturers are struggling to balance power delivery and performance in these areas.

Hmm, it's possible. I have experienced similar pick up problems in at least one other similar sized car, I can't remember what but it definately wasn't a Ford. I was wondering about the type of engine, the JTS system. I remember reading in one review (link below, the relevant bit is about 2/3rds the way down, the first paragraph that stretches the full length of the page) that this type of system lets the engine run very lean at low revs then reverts to a "normal" engine above 1,500 RPM. Ever since I read this thread I have thought about that, and maybe it's the part where the engine changes from the lean-burn bit to normal running that's causing the problem, not enough fuel getting through for that split-second when you want/expect it to pick up.

It does seem to fit the bill, and if so it may well be what AR mean when they say it's a charateristic of the engine rather than a fault but that doesn't excuse them not remapping it as a free after-sale fix given that a solution is available. It's obviously a problem even if it isn't - officially- a fault.

159 review

[Fraser]

Originally Posted by coolsociety

it may well be what AR mean when they say it's a charateristic of the engine rather than a fault but that doesn't excuse them not remapping it as a free after-sale fix given that a solution is available. It's obviously a problem even if it isn't - officially- a fault.

But what would stop them doing it is the cost of "admitting" there is a problem and having to implement the remap Europe-wide, particularly if it meant re-testing to comply with Euro pollution requirements and fuel consmption tests.

[coolsociety]

Originally Posted by Fraser

But what would stop them doing it is the cost of "admitting" there is a problem and having to implement the remap Europe-wide, particularly if it meant re-testing to comply with Euro pollution requirements and fuel consmption tests.

Agreed, but it doesn't stop them offering an after-sales "free upgrade".

[Squadrone Rosso]

The trouble is, when it comes to aftersales and in general, ARUK (or the Fiat group as they'll soon be known) don't give a toss about customers

On the whole, decent dealers have their hands tied although there are still plenty of crap dealers out there too

I devote a significant amount of my time to the marque but even I wonder why I bother on times.

Clarkson & crew have it prettly much spot on; nice cars but when they go wrong (and they will go wrong), you end up in the hands of the worst support network in automotive industry

[GCDBONES123]

Originally Posted by Squadrone Rosso

The trouble is, when it comes to aftersales and in general, ARUK (or the Fiat group as they'll soon be known) don't give a toss about customers

On the whole, decent dealers have their hands tied although there are still plenty of crap dealers out there too

I devote a significant amount of my time to the marque but even I wonder why I bother on times.

Clarkson & crew have it prettly much spot on; nice cars but when they go wrong (and they will go wrong), you end up in the hands of the worst support network in automotive industry

+1
Clarkson gets it right so often. As he says you buy the cars but you couldnt recommend them to a friend. Or my personal favourite, "Owning an Alfa is like a great nights sex with a beautiful woman that leaves you with an embarrasing itch"
I love the brand but they are sorely testing me lately with their we've got your cash now f*&k off and leave us alone attitude

[jsfletcher159]

Originally Posted by coolsociety

Hmm, it's possible. I have experienced similar pick up problems in at least one other similar sized car, I can't remember what but it definately wasn't a Ford. I was wondering about the type of engine, the JTS system. I remember reading in one review (link below, the relevant bit is about 2/3rds the way down, the first paragraph that stretches the full length of the page) that this type of system lets the engine run very lean at low revs then reverts to a "normal" engine above 1,500 RPM. Ever since I read this thread I have thought about that, and maybe it's the part where the engine changes from the lean-burn bit to normal running that's causing the problem, not enough fuel getting through for that split-second when you want/expect it to pick up.

It does seem to fit the bill, and if so it may well be what AR mean when they say it's a charateristic of the engine rather than a fault but that doesn't excuse them not remapping it as a free after-sale fix given that a solution is available. It's obviously a problem even if it isn't - officially- a fault.

159 review

To add more to the story I owned two MG ZT190s before buying the Alfa 159 and those suffered a similar type of problem but it was related to what was called the vis valves. This was basically an electro-mechanical device that consisted of a variable air intake that gave an extra power boost above about 3500rpm.

The solution was either a new intake manifold (£600) or two new vis valves (£50 each) depending how unlucky (or lucky!) you were.

The difference to this story of course is that MG Rover are no more whereas ARUK still are!

Guests of Willenhall have told me to get action I need a case number from ARUK.

What's worrying me is that I will do that and nothing will happen given what I am reading on this post.

I can't help it; I still really like the 159ti though, I have had loads of positive comments about it.

[Nev]

Well, this looks like this has all gone dead.

Something the second-hand market will have to deal with I suppose.

[Commanderfish]

I don't think it will be much of a problem for the second hand owners. My car has been "fixed" and otherwise improved after market and I know several others have to, and more are due to be fixed. Some cars like my wife's never had the issue.

Really it was some of us brand new owners that this affected.

[jethrowatson]

I have just read pages 1 through to 9 and then fast forwarded to the end as there were basically lots of people saying they have the problem. so heres me....

I have a 06 Brera which I bought second hand from a dealer, it seems to have a similar problem as what is being described.

I would like to get it fixed and if money were no object I would contact AutoDelta. My question is, has anyone been able to fix the problem with their main dealer under warrenty? My local dealer Merdian Milano in Bournemouth seem to be very friendly but Im not going to contact them without confirmation someone else has had it fixed.

I can 'drive around' the problem but its my fuel consumption which is starting to suck. 22 mpg current unless I do a good long drive. 17k on the clock.

[Squadrone Rosso]

There's no chance Alfa fixing it as although their dealers recognise there's an issue, Alfa will not do anything about it as they see it as a characteristic

The latest AD map is excellent. Not tried the RD one but CF seems chuffed with the result.

That reminds me, I must call Jano........

[tony44]

There is something wrong if you are only getting 22mpg. The worst I've seen is 23/24 and that is seriously giving the car some stick on country roads, and believe me you can't drive like that all the time.
When I have driven like that (very rarely) its only for 10 miles or so and over a tank my average will rise to 26ish.
28/29 is my normal everyday average.
Haven't heard of anyone having the hesitation fixed with Alfa UK.

[coolsociety]

Surely a remap would pay for itself eventually, especially if fuel consumption is that bad?

[Commanderfish]

Originally Posted by coolsociety

Hi folks.

In contrast, three weeks after buying my £9,000 approved used BMW (which was 4 years old at the time) I complained about a similar flat spot at low revs and they replaced the valves AT THEIR SUGGESTION free of charge and gave me a new 530i as a courtesy car for a week. I don't really care what other people think of BM's (or any other car I may choose for that matter), it's a great car and I'm only really looking to change because I have back problems and the seat doesn't suit me.

I think BMW customer service is pretty good actually - it's just the cost of their annual servicing that's painful. Tends to be £750 - 800 plus replacement parts each year on my mums 3 series. To be fair when it was new, it was more like £600 a year, but that's still more than double the cost of AR servicing.

[Commanderfish]

Originally Posted by tony44

There is something wrong if you are only getting 22mpg. The worst I've seen is 23/24 and that is seriously giving the car some stick on country roads, and believe me you can't drive like that all the time.
When I have driven like that (very rarely) its only for 10 miles or so and over a tank my average will rise to 26ish.
28/29 is my normal everyday average.
Haven't heard of anyone having the hesitation fixed with Alfa UK.

Tony might have a point, you might see 22mpg if you only drove in heavy London traffic but you don't live in London.

[Commanderfish]

Originally Posted by coolsociety

Surely a remap would pay for itself eventually, especially if fuel consumption is that bad?

I think so as my mpgs have gone up a bit, but really it pays for itself very quickly in terms of sheer enjoyment. Everyone seems to be happy with their maps. Plus there are well-known tuning companies doing the 2.2 map for £200-£250 these days (at one point Autodelta had a monopoly as they were the first to crack the 2.2).