Alfa GT 1.9 Jtd Clutch upgrade mixed messages - Alfa Romeo Forum
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Alfa GT 1.9 Jtd Clutch upgrade mixed messages

I am trying to get clarity as to what clutch to fit to my Alfa Romeo GT Blackline 1.9 Jtd. My current clutch (standard) is slipping so needs replacing. I have two possible situations depending on which power upgrade I go with:

1) 190bhp
2) 240bhp

I want to keep the dual mass flywheel and don't want a paddle type clutch. I expect I'll fit a Q2/Quaife LSD at the same time as replacing the clutch. The following has been suggested:

1) Solid flywheel with GTA clutch. Suggested by Autolusso but I want to keep the refinement of a DMF so am not going with this option. Ned of Autolusso has been very helpful and seems knowledgeable so I have asked his opinion regarding keeping the DMF.

2) CG Motorsports Stage 2 clutch. Several members have had success with this upgrade but the CG Motorsports website states that it is not suitable for diesels and Duncan Slade (of Alfanet) has suggested that aftermarket clutches often have issues.

3) CG Motorsports dual friction clutch. CG Motorsports website suggests that this is the better option for tuned diesels. However I have read that this type can be very juddery and may have an on/off feel. I have contacted CG Motorsports for their opinion.

4) Standard clutch. It has been suggested to me that the standard Alfa GT Jtd clutch is the same as that fitted to the GTA with the only difference being the DMF. Therefore the standard GT clutch should be good for 250bhp.

I would greatly appreciate any advice on the above or any other recommendations for either of the two power options I am considering.

Thank you.
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BHP is not a problem, its torque which is a problem.

I've driven a customer's car with DMF and dual friction clutch and it was juddery, so I wouldn't pick that option myself. The CG Motorsports stage 2 clutch is appealing, where have you read that it isn't suitable for diesels? I've used their stage 1 clutch before and it lasted 50,000 miles at 200bhp / 320lbft.
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On the CG Motorsports website the product details for the stage 2 clutch has a statement saying that it is not recommended for diesels and to contact them for advice. The statement appeared when I put the clutch in the shopping basket to check the technical details.
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this is a tough one, I have the same quandry..


mine's at 225BHP at the mo and I have the stage one and DMF, no slipping at all but its only been a couple of thousand miles and I fear its not a case of if but when...that said I do hoof it and so far it feels solid.

you didn't list the drive torque stage 2 option which I know is run by at least one person on here with good results and for me it's between that and the AL SMF and GTA clutch option..I suspect all of the choices you listed will hold the power IF the mapping is sympathetic, it will be torque spikes that kill the clutch not peak BHP or torque. you know what they say, if you want to pat a dog on the head let it know you are coming,dont just creep up behind it or you WILL get bitten. this whole thing will be about how gradually the torque reaches it's peak..

I think some clever manipulation of boost limiter in specific places will give a good feel but protect the CV joints/clutch/flywheel.

personally I am leaning towards the SMF and GTA conversion as my intended final power levels will be limited by what the injectors being a 150 unit can safely handle before they go pop , NOT what the clutch can handle...

lets be honest, Damien ,you and myself are in new territory with this as i don't think anyone in this country bar us three are running GT/147 1.9 JTDm units at these kinds of power levels. it's going to be a case of suck it and see i'm afraid and hopefully between Ned and the three of us we can find a solution that is reliable and has some longevity at our power /torque levels.

it's going to be easier for all who follow for sure but that is the price you pay for being among the first...

GT blackline,Bilstien B12's and Eibach Anti roll bar kit,Quaife Diff,Autolusso performance pads, de-cat downpipe,hybrid turbo,stage one clutch,autolusso re-map, swirl flap and egr delete, leon cupra front splitter,novitec light covers,simone racing gear knob.
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Hi guys, I'm running a gt 1.9 and have had various autolusso mods, I just had a hybrid turbo fitted and I think the results are pleasing. I want to change the clutch as it has a high bite. Ned suggests a solid coversion but I'm not sure my clutch doesn't slip the Dmf seems ok no rattles or judder I don't hoof it and I'm minded at the moment to put a new standard clutch in and suck it and see Ned suggests speaking to Damien which is hopefully one of you guys. Any input would be helpful.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ken s View Post
Hi guys, I'm running a gt 1.9 and have had various autolusso mods, I just had a hybrid turbo fitted and I think the results are pleasing. I want to change the clutch as it has a high bite. Ned suggests a solid coversion but I'm not sure my clutch doesn't slip the Dmf seems ok no rattles or judder I don't hoof it and I'm minded at the moment to put a new standard clutch in and suck it and see Ned suggests speaking to Damien which is hopefully one of you guys. Any input would be helpful.
This is Damien's profile

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/members/alfadoit.html

We are fitting this kit in the next few days so lets see how that goes

Ned
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mine's at 225BHP at the mo
Howre you getting 225, a remap and Ned's turbo ?
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I now have two other options:
- CG Motorsport stage 1
- Standard Cloverleaf 170 bhp clutch per here: http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...tdm-se-q2.html (Clutch recommendations: GT Cloverleaf 1.9 JTDM SE Q2)

My issue is I'd like to wait to see how the solid flywheel/GTA clutch with hybrid turbo plays out per the posts above but I need the clutch replacing imminently.

I'm favouring the CG Motorsports stage 1 at the minute.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ken s View Post
Hi guys, I'm running a gt 1.9 and have had various autolusso mods, I just had a hybrid turbo fitted and I think the results are pleasing. I want to change the clutch as it has a high bite. Ned suggests a solid coversion but I'm not sure my clutch doesn't slip the Dmf seems ok no rattles or judder I don't hoof it and I'm minded at the moment to put a new standard clutch in and suck it and see Ned suggests speaking to Damien which is hopefully one of you guys. Any input would be helpful.

How does the hybrid turbo feel? I'm thinking of doing this later in the year.
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Howre you getting 225, a remap and Ned's turbo ?
yup, mine and Alfadoit's were the first two...

there is more power to be had for for certain but I am holding at the current power levels until i have the clutch replaced with something more robust. as said before likely to be the Autolusso SMF and GTA clutch option.
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Originally Posted by Autolusso View Post
This is Damien's profile

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/members/alfadoit.html

We are fitting this kit in the next few days so lets see how that goes

Ned
Thanks ned
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Transformed my gt quiet, more responsive and I'm very pleased with the outcome
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How does the hybrid turbo feel? I'm thinking of doing this later in the year.

frickin awesome.

a Huge improvement on the standard set up, especially in the mid range. Highly recommended...also the M-tech short shift kit is a massive mod IMO, for not a lot of money you can string the gear changes together in a way that makes the hybrid's extra power very usable. I think the SS kit has taken a whole second off my 0-60 as I now stay on boost between gear changes, it is so much more drive-able and gets down the road with much more urgency.

also worth mentioning that AL also did my mapping and have done a great job of it..anything above what I have now is a bonus as I have achieved what I set out too...225 torquey horses with instant throttle response due to the addition of stainless turbo pipes and the SS Kit.

another 8-10% is ''safely available'' IMO after this point what would happen is anyone's guess.

the plan now is the clutch and then a final map tweak...I do have an FMIC in the garage but remain convinced that It just is not required for fast road use and anything under the 240 mark...it may be for sale shortly.
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What do you do about insurance? I've had reasonable quotes for the mods I'm considering but I'd like to know who you are with.
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Did you have a remap before going for the turbo or did you go straight from standard to turbo? 190bhp feels "right" in a diesel gt so I guess 230 to 240 would feel quick.
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another 8-10% is ''safely available'' IMO after this point what would happen is anyone's guess.

the plan now is the clutch and then a final map tweak
Glad youre enjoying it.

There are a few 275bhp+ 1.9 16v JTDs on here that have been around for a fair few years, so I d think youd be safe with more, obviously AFTER the clutch upgrade.
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Glad youre enjoying it.

There are a few 275bhp+ 1.9 16v JTDs on here that have been around for a fair few years, so I d think youd be safe with more, obviously AFTER the clutch upgrade.
How has 275 bhp been achieved?
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How has 275 bhp been achieved?
Big turbo, big injectors, and big balls
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How has 275 bhp been achieved?
The usual - intercooler, remap, exhaust, plus maybe some bigger injectors, maybe a hybrid turbo like Ned's or a bigger one like the unit from the later 210ps 2.4 159s, maybe a bit of water/meth, some people have gone further with NOS, thats not for me though, but it can take you over 300. JBsmith has 350 I think from his 2.4.
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Thank you for the advice so far. My initial enquiry to Autolusso was to start to understand the options to achieve 250 bhp or 300 bhp. Further research and advice here suggests 240 to 250 is reasonable without undue risk. As I'm based nearby bristol a CG Motorsports stage 1 clutch fitted by Duncan Slade seems like a good option for now but I'm going to wait to see what Autolusso can offer with regard to keeping the DMF, especially as they seem to have an excellent reputation.
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Glad youre enjoying it.

There are a few 275bhp+ 1.9 16v JTDs on here that have been around for a fair few years, so I d think youd be safe with more, obviously AFTER the clutch upgrade.

good to know I can push it..


but ..


one of my major aims was balancing throttle response and OE feel with the power numbers..if you go bigger with the turbo then I would assume you are getting into the territory of either a custom turbo manifold or retrofitting the mani from the 2.4 JTD to fit the 1.9?..one of the attractions of the hybrid is it's bolt back onto the car with no alteration to other parts required.

Because the VNT calibration has been tweaked the turbo still spools at the same point despite the 56mm compressor wheel.

with the bigger turbo there is the question of throttle response which undoubtedly the bigger the turbo the more the potential problems with lag,add the extra volume and length of the intake piping for a larger intercooler and you might find although the numbers would undoubtedly be bigger some compromises may have to be made...

I am sure it can be mapped accordingly to minimise this, but ultimately you can't bend the laws of physics..you can run higher boost of course but all I have found this does is create a larger ''jump'' between on and off boost and you can't advance the vnt adjustment to bring the turbo in earlier past a certain point...

I have tried to find the optimum point of tune between really big figures and something that is pleasant to drive on a daily basis, hence my avoidance of a dual friction clutch,FMIC, and my preference for the DMF over the SMF to maintain OE clutch feel. I do accept I may have to re-evaluate this but would prefer in an ideal world an option that would maintain the DMF and still hold 240 BHP comfortably for a reasonable amount of time...I am so on the fence on this as I don't want to sacrifice the day to day enjoyment of the car for an arbitrary number..

my other concern is that because I have the 150 unit the injectors will be a limiting factor and I have heard enough about injector problems at factory power levels without going too far..bigger injectors would definitely be required for those 250+ numbers. damien has them in his clover hence its all good

so, intercooler,bigger injectors,bigger turbo,a lairy map and 275 BHP is do-able but I am not sure I would enjoy it as much as the 225BHP I currently have and it would cost a fairly large wedge of money to achieve.

also I would have to put up with a twonky juddery dual friction paddle clutch...I would rather have less power and more drivability.


obviously this is just what i think is right for my car given my intended usage and what I set out to achieve , which TBH in tuning circles are very modest gains, however I am very happy with it!


my final point is that i also have bilstien B12 shocks with eibach springs,an eibach ARB kit and a quaife LSD, as well as performance pads and fluid. all of this stuff is as important as the power as you need to be able to get it safely onto the road and for the car to handle well...I would also say that going up to 275 BHP on one of these without going up to 330mm discs and 4 pot calipers is just stupid. your stopping power must be equal to your your engine output. this mod on a GT is probably 2k as you need to change the discs,pads,calipers and uprights to accommodate it all.

I have thought it all through and on balance have decided for me at least based on a number of factors 240 is my absolute limit.
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What do you do about insurance? I've had reasonable quotes for the mods I'm considering but I'd like to know who you are with.

I am with Adrian flux at the moment but its due on the 5th of may, didn't like the renewal offer at all so am now going with green light who were 35% cheaper!
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Did you have a remap before going for the turbo or did you go straight from standard to turbo? 190bhp feels "right" in a diesel gt so I guess 230 to 240 would feel quick.
previously I had a map that was worth about 180 on the stock turbo, really good fun and the bhp doesn't tell the story on these engines, it was 300 Ft Lb along with that 180 BHP !

obviously the hybrid is on another planet in comparison..
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Thanks. Just re-reading this previous thread:

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...riences-2.html (Uprated Clutch on JTD - Suggestions / Experiences)

If Damien is reading this thread I'd love your opinion on the Angel Tuning remap vs. the hybrid turbo.
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Joeymannero - your post pretty much summed up my thoughts. I too am aiming for OE feel of both clutch and turbo which is also why I am hesitant to go for solid flywheel and paddle/dual friction clutch. I'm also not willing to take big risks with the rest of the drive train hence after research over the last few weeks I feel that big power (240+) and solid flywheel is not an affordable risk for me. But I am also struggling to justify the additional cost of the hybrid turbo over a remap alone - hence my questions about the turbo vs. remap. However it seems that the turbo offers significantly more in terms of the ability to map a flatter torque curve therefore making the torque more available throughout the rev range.

I understand the point about brakes and suspension but I actually go against the herd in this respect that I don't intent to drive faster or take more risks rather just accelerate quicker on safe roads to enjoy the additional power. My reasoning is therefore that uprated brakes and suspension is not a must for me unless I decide to take it on track days. But on that note I've also been keeping an eye out for a good running Mk1 1.8 MX5 for a track day car but I expect I'll have to decide between the GT power upgrades and the MX5, especially with the family to put first. I am very much in favour of the GT upgrades at the minute, especially as I need to pay for the new clutch whatever.
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