Alfa GT 1.9 Jtd Clutch upgrade mixed messages - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Forum
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Originally Posted by joeymannero View Post
good to know I can push it..
but ..

one of my major aims was balancing throttle response and OE feel with the power numbers..if you go bigger with the turbo then I would assume you are getting into the territory of either a custom turbo manifold or retrofitting the mani from the 2.4 JTD to fit the 1.9?..one of the attractions of the hybrid is it's bolt back onto the car with no alteration to other parts required.

Because the VNT calibration has been tweaked the turbo still spools at the same point despite the 56mm compressor wheel.

with the bigger turbo there is the question of throttle response which undoubtedly the bigger the turbo the more the potential problems with lag,add the extra volume and length of the intake piping for a larger intercooler and you might find although the numbers would undoubtedly be bigger some compromises may have to be made...

I am sure it can be mapped accordingly to minimise this, but ultimately you can't bend the laws of physics..you can run higher boost of course but all I have found this does is create a larger ''jump'' between on and off boost and you can't advance the vnt adjustment to bring the turbo in earlier past a certain point...

I have tried to find the optimum point of tune between really big figures and something that is pleasant to drive on a daily basis, hence my avoidance of a dual friction clutch,FMIC, and my preference for the DMF over the SMF to maintain OE clutch feel. I do accept I may have to re-evaluate this but would prefer in an ideal world an option that would maintain the DMF and still hold 240 BHP comfortably for a reasonable amount of time...I am so on the fence on this as I don't want to sacrifice the day to day enjoyment of the car for an arbitrary number..

my other concern is that because I have the 150 unit the injectors will be a limiting factor and I have heard enough about injector problems at factory power levels without going too far..bigger injectors would definitely be required for those 250+ numbers. damien has them in his clover hence its all good

so, intercooler,bigger injectors,bigger turbo,a lairy map and 275 BHP is do-able but I am not sure I would enjoy it as much as the 225BHP I currently have and it would cost a fairly large wedge of money to achieve.

also I would have to put up with a twonky juddery dual friction paddle clutch...I would rather have less power and more drivability.


obviously this is just what i think is right for my car given my intended usage and what I set out to achieve , which TBH in tuning circles are very modest gains, however I am very happy with it!


my final point is that i also have bilstien B12 shocks with eibach springs,an eibach ARB kit and a quaife LSD, as well as performance pads and fluid. all of this stuff is as important as the power as you need to be able to get it safely onto the road and for the car to handle well...I would also say that going up to 275 BHP on one of these without going up to 330mm discs and 4 pot calipers is just stupid. your stopping power must be equal to your your engine output. this mod on a GT is probably 2k as you need to change the discs,pads,calipers and uprights to accommodate it all.

I have thought it all through and on balance have decided for me at least based on a number of factors 240 is my absolute limit.
I understand your concerns about the turbo, but the GTB2056v from the 210 2.4 is, I m assured a great turbo for the 1.9 without any major compromise, although I havent actually experienced it myself, you do need a different manifold but that comes with the kit. This has been the turbo mod to do to 1.9s for big power for years, now that Ned has come up with his hybrid I m still not sure if its on a par with the GTB2056v, or if its a less drastic option, sort of a halway house between the standard tubos and the GTB2056v. Theres a thread by JS JTD (the guy behind JTD Performance) thats been running for years here :

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/tunin...dm16v-gtb.html (Project 147 JTDm16v GTB)

As for the FMIC (this subject always makes me laugh cos ALL ICs are front mounted, just cos its to the right doesnt mean its not on the front and the right hand side of the front gets just as much air as the centre and the left, the problem with the 1.9/2.4 intercooler is its size not its position - some people call the std IC "SMIC", but it aint mounted in the side, its still an FMIC !!) - changing it wont negatively effect OEM driveabllity one bit, although I totally agree about the extra piping and I have several ideas of getting around this, but many cars in production have similar lengths of tubing for their ICs without excess lag, I d just like to have more cooling and LESS lag than std by reducing the amount of pipe work over OEM. Anyways a bigger one will give you a little more power but should also improve economy a little as well when youre not pushing it.

As for clutches personally I ll cross that bridge when I come to it - I ve had two 140s with tuning boxes taking them to 168 for the last 8 years with no clutch probs. Now got a 170 DC and the clutch feels different to the 140/150 cars (it IS different), but clearly it wont handle the amount the car will have when I ve finished with it. I ve heard some bad stuff about SMFs, and some good stuff also, including people who say it doesnt feel any different to a DMF, like I say I ll cross that bridge when I come to it, but you should drive cars with the different set ups, I m sure Ned will let you. But you dont HAVE to have a paddle clutch with 250+ there are a few options, have you searched the site about it ?

With 150 injectors 250 may well be your limit, having said that theres a 280ps car that started out as a 140 one somewhere in Eastern Europe still going strong (hes on here, cant remember his name at the mo). I guess its whatever your happy with really, stop when you want to.

Brakes - there are options other than GTA 330s for silly money - I put GTA uprights and 305 Brembos on my last 140, theyre pretty good brakes and not as bad as some people would have you believe (they were used on the Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo and the first Focus RS), theryre a lot cheaper than the 330s. Theres also a Brembo upgrade kit for fitting to standard 147/156/GT cars although it is a bit pricey (if its still available), plus you can use 159 Brembos and the Mito/Punto Abarth Brembos with fit straight on, plus theres the 166 Brembos which can be used with 330 as well as 310 discs. Having said all that some people are now saying that the standard brakes with upgraded discs and pads are actually pretty decent and an upgrade isnt needed. Theres a thread about it here :

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/tunin...st-thread.html (156 Brembo upgrade bracket interest thread.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeymannero View Post
I am with Adrian flux at the moment but its due on the 5th of may, didn't like the renewal offer at all so am now going with green light who were 35% cheaper!
So am I and mines due just 2 days earlier. Flux will usually try and beat quotes so its worth telling them before you go with green Light. Take it youve got a modded car policy ?

Last edited by typos1; 26-04-16 at 00:08.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by typos1 View Post
I understand your concerns about the turbo, but the GTB2056v from the 210 2.4 is, I m assured a great turbo for the 1.9 without any major compromise, although I havent actually experienced it myself, you do need a different manifold but that comes with the kit. This has been the turbo mod to do to 1.9s for big power for years, now that Ned has come up with his hybrid I m still not sure if its on a par with the GTB2056v, or if its a less drastic option, sort of a halway house between the standard tubos and the GTB2056v. Theres a thread by JS JTD (the guy behind JTD Performance) thats been running for years here :

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/tunin...dm16v-gtb.html (Project 147 JTDm16v GTB)

As for the FMIC (this subject always makes me laugh cos ALL ICs are front mounted, just cos its to the right doesnt mean its not on the front and the right hand side of the front gets just as much air as the centre and the left, the problem with the 1.9/2.4 intercooler is its size not its position - some people call the std IC "SMIC", but it aint mounted in the side, its still an FMIC !!) - changing it wont negatively effect OEM driveabllity one bit, although I totally agree about the extra piping and I have several ideas of getting around this, but many cars in production have similar lengths of tubing for their ICs without excess lag, I d just like to have more cooling and LESS lag than std by reducing the amount of pipe work over OEM. Anyways a bigger one will give you a little more power but should also improve economy a little as well when youre not pushing it.

As for clutches personally I ll cross that bridge when I come to it - I ve had two 140s with tuning boxes taking them to 168 for the last 8 years with no clutch probs. Now got a 170 DC and the clutch feels different to the 140/150 cars (it IS different), but clearly it wont handle the amount the car will have when I ve finished with it. I ve heard some bad stuff about SMFs, and some good stuff also, including people who say it doesnt feel any different to a DMF, like I say I ll cross that bridge when I come to it, but you should drive cars with the different set ups, I m sure Ned will let you. But you dont HAVE to have a paddle clutch with 250+ there are a few options, have you searched the site about it ?

With 150 injectors 250 may well be your limit, having said that theres a 280ps car that started out as a 140 one somewhere in Eastern Europe still going strong (hes on here, cant remember his name at the mo). I guess its whatever your happy with really, stop when you want to.

Brakes - there are options other than GTA 330s for silly money - I put GTA uprights and 305 Brembos on my last 140, theyre pretty good brakes and not as bad as some people would have you believe (they were used on the Fiat Coupe 20v Turbo and the first Focus RS), theryre a lot cheaper than the 330s. Theres also a Brembo upgrade kit for fitting to standard 147/156/GT cars although it is a bit pricey (if its still available), plus you can use 159 Brembos and the Mito/Punto Abarth Brembos with fit straight on, plus theres the 166 Brembos which can be used with 330 as well as 310 discs. Having said all that some people are now saying that the standard brakes with upgraded discs and pads are actually pretty decent and an upgrade isnt needed. Theres a thread about it here :

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/tunin...st-thread.html (156 Brembo upgrade bracket interest thread.)



So am I and mines due just 2 days earlier. Flux will usually try and beat quotes so its worth telling them before you go with green Light. Take it youve got a modded car policy ?
thanks Typos1 for the detailed reply..I had no idea about the GTB2056v turbo upgrade on the 1.9 having been available in kit form for a while, I did look into bigger turbo's as Joel at JTD performance is running one along with water meth injection, his 147 is 292 BHP I didn't know it was that turbo, I have spoken to Joel several time for advice though and he has always been helpful and informative. in fact my airbox is modded for his FMIC kit as that was originally the plan..

Anyway as said before I elected to go with the hybrid for ease of fitting as well as the point of spool issue, re the punto/mito brembo 2 pots I did know about this and Loz at autolusso south is looking out for a set for me and I look on a ebay a couple of times a week for a pair. they aint cheap new that's for sure! so if I do it a used set will have to be the way to go..I currently have Autolusso performance pads and along with race fluid they are enough at my current power level WHEN WARM..and this is the real issue TBH I don't hare around everywhere and would like a braking option that works efficiently at all temps and conditions without spending a load of money. It's not fade when pushed that is the issue but the narrow band of really confidence inspiring performance. the discs could be changed for drilled and grooved M-tech ones as a further upgrade to the OE set up but after that I am in spending big money territory if I wish to push the car much further than I have. my current set up is adequate though at my current state of tune.

now to the intercooler, that is interesting and I fully agree with all you have said, I have always felt a bigger cooler positioned where the stock one is would be a great addition to my set up as I could keep the stock pipe length and routing, having invested good money in stainless pipes on mine I would prefer a solution that utilizes them,they made such a difference to throttle response I really don't want to ruin it by adding volume to the intake..

are you aware of a bigger intecooler that could be adapted to go into the same position as the OE? this I would be very interested in doing!

re injectors ,I could run bigger ones and I have kept an eye on ebay for someone breaking a clover 170 but TBH they don't come up often, my intention is that if my current injectors do fail I will aim to replace them with a better /bigger set ,what happens here will all come down to chance!

finally its worth mentioning that due to a serious lack of parking where we are I have had to be very balanced on my approach to this build as its my only car..mileage can be varied and is often high, she is expected to do big journeys often so reliability has been a major consideration, had I another car (other than my wife's pug 208) I would have pushed this to the limit as chances are it would cover no more than 8k a year, as it is it's done over 30k since I bought her in feb of last year and has never let me down, that said I am on top of the maintenance so she shouldn't...

The money spent so far is considerable,not just on modding but on keeping her on the road in good health...and i did not go out and buy a cheap one one..! 70k on the clock when purchased, mint Blackline and I paid 5k..that said she has still needed..

Clutch,flywheel,radiator,upper and lower wishbones and ARB droplinks,EGR delete,swirl flap delete,handbrake cables,window control units x2 door handle hinges x 2 complete sets of tires, new front and rear pads,servicing x3 and undersealing ..I would say this is normal for any 8 year old car doing 30k a year...clutch and flywheel was down to the original re-map, wishbones, well we all have to deal with that, and rad,well i think it must have been one of the copper ones from the factory.

mods,hybrid turbo,quaife Diff,bilstiens,eibach kit,re-maps x 2 wheel refurb ,etc etc..I have done a fair bit of the work myself so not too bad but she goes to Autolusso south for the big stuff,

as a result she is a fantastic looking and driving car, but in order that some of this makes sense financially I need another 3 years of service out of her, that's another 60k on my mileage ,pushing everything to it's limits on a 100k vehicle will not be the best way to achieve this! hence my slow and careful approach to this whole thing..that said she has been and continues to be solid as a rock.

I think people sometimes throw their daily requirements out of the window when modding a car! I HAVE to be more balanced..one parking space see's to that!

P.S I do have a fiat coupe as well but its kept 10 miles away at a mates house so can't be used viably as a second car really..

still not sure what to do about the clutch!.. as you said Typos ,deal with it as and when it becomes an issue...


will give flux a shout today and see what they have to say about renewal...


best


joey

GT blackline,Bilstien B12's and Eibach Anti roll bar kit,Quaife Diff,Autolusso performance pads, de-cat downpipe,hybrid turbo,stage one clutch,autolusso re-map, swirl flap and egr delete, leon cupra front splitter,novitec light covers,simone racing gear knob.
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Hi again,

Thought I'd give a bit of an update. I've bought myself an MX5 Mk1 for eventual track use so am not going to mod my GT. So I'm booked in with Duncan Chase for a standard clutch replacement at the end of Oct. Hopefully DMF won't need doing - fingers crossed.

Thanks all for the previous advice.
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