What have you done to your Alfa 147/156/GT today? - Page 86 - Alfa Romeo Forum
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Forgive me but what on earth does meth do?!
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Originally Posted by Firstcaralfa View Post
Forgive me but what on earth does meth do?!
Cools the charge.

The turbo compresses the air, which heats it up. Intercoolers are in place to help dissipate this extra heat, but Water-Methanol Injection sprays a mist of fluid into the air inlet which cools it even further as the liquid evaporates - like spraying a fine mist of water on to your face! It's the evaporation that sucks a load of latent heat of of the air.

The cooler the air charge, the denser it is, the denser it is, the greater the mass of air you get in the cylinder, and the more air mass you get in the cylinder, the more fuel you can chuck in there to burn!

Also has the effect of cooling the exhaust outlet temperature (good for managing exhaust header temps, engine bay heat soak etc.).

The Methanol is in the mix to add a bit of calorific value to the WMI charge.. Straight water could hinder combustion a bit as the water can soak too much heat once in the cylinder (combustion timing gets retarded), straight methanol whilst it has a cooling effect on the charge will usually result in higher exhaust temperatures as pure alcohols burn hot!

Somewhere between a 30:70 (methanol:water, pretty much winter strength screen wash) and a 50:50 mix is usually about right.

There are also knock on benefits I've seen claimed - can help keep things from gumming/coking up as the head is essentially getting a light steam clean every second rotation, presence of water in the cylinder can help maintain a longer power stroke by providing more mass to expand under the adiabatic heating, all sorts of things...

Downsides are it's another system that needs maintenance, and another fluid level that needs checking and topping up. Water will get everywhere in the head, so for cast iron blocks rust/corrosion can be an issue (perhaps not so much with out Aluminium blocks), and the dangers of relying on WMI to push the engine tune are that you can seriously overheat things if you run out of water/meth whilst driving.

Not a tweak for everyone, but an interesting one to follow definitely!
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Last edited by _The_Editor_; 14-03-16 at 14:27.
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Forgive me but what on earth does meth do?!

in very simple terms lower inlet temps which means more oxygen rich air and more efficient combustion..this = more power, this is a bit of an oversimplified an explanation...but basically right.


here is an in depth explanation

How It Works: Water Methanol Injection - Diesel Army
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Originally Posted by _The_Editor_ View Post
Cools the charge.

The turbo compresses the air, which heats it up. Intercoolers are in place to help dissipate this extra heat, but Water-Methanol Injection sprays a mist of fluid into the air inlet which cools it even further as the liquid evaporates - like spraying a fine mist of water on to your face! It's the evaporation that sucks a load of latent heat of of the air.

The cooler the air charge, the denser it is, the denser it is, the greater the mass of air you get in the cylinder, and the more air mass you get in the cylinder, the more fuel you can chuck in there to burn!

Also has the effect of cooling the exhaust outlet temperature (good for managing exhaust header temps, engine bay heat soak etc.).

The Methanol is in the mix to add a bit of calorific value to the WMI charge.. Straight water could hinder combustion a bit as the water can soak too much heat once in the cylinder (combustion timing gets retarded), straight methanol whilst it has a cooling effect on the charge will usually result in higher exhaust temperatures as pure alcohols burn hot!

Somewhere between a 30:70 (methanol:water, pretty much winter strength screen wash) and a 50:50 mix is usually about right.

There are also knock on benefits I've seen claimed - can help keep things from gumming/coking up as the head is essentially getting a light steam clean every second rotation, presence of water in the cylinder can help maintain a longer power stroke by providing more mass to expand under the adiabatic heating, all sorts of things...

Downsides are it's another system that needs maintenance, and another fluid level that needs checking and topping up. Water will get everywhere in the head, so for cast iron blocks rust/corrosion can be an issue (perhaps not so much with out Aluminium blocks), and the dangers of relying on WMI to push the engine tune are that you can seriously overheat things if you run out of water/meth whilst driving.

Not a tweak for everyone, but an interesting one to follow definitely!
?????? Water will get everywhere in the head??? Not if its a quality system and fine mist jet set to the engines power level etc? A good brand system is reliable. Yes you have to be careful how reliant your state of tune is on the meth injection system. To a point where the engine is not overly dependant on the mixture. You have to be wise. But it is a great mod for tuned engines running more boost and more able turbo's. Only then does it make sense.

Damien.
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?????? Water will get everywhere in the head??? Not if its a quality system and fine mist jet set to the engines power level etc? A good brand system is reliable. Yes you have to be careful how reliant your state of tune is on the meth injection system. To a point where the engine is not overly dependant on the mixture. You have to be wise. But it is a great mod for tuned engines running more boost and more able turbo's. Only then does it make sense.

Damien.
Calm down dude, I'm not suggesting you've just had a garden hose plumbed into your intake

Just pointing out some of the potential pitfalls with WMI setups.. Get a to spec install, and you won't have any problems. Get a cheapo, you might cause some issues..

Same with remaps... Get a top shop to do the work, you'll get a reliable and safe product.. Let any old tweaker have a go, and you'll risk all sorts of problems!
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Originally Posted by _The_Editor_ View Post
Cools the charge.

The turbo compresses the air, which heats it up. Intercoolers are in place to help dissipate this extra heat, but Water-Methanol Injection sprays a mist of fluid into the air inlet which cools it even further as the liquid evaporates - like spraying a fine mist of water on to your face! It's the evaporation that sucks a load of latent heat of of the air.

The cooler the air charge, the denser it is, the denser it is, the greater the mass of air you get in the cylinder, and the more air mass you get in the cylinder, the more fuel you can chuck in there to burn!

Also has the effect of cooling the exhaust outlet temperature (good for managing exhaust header temps, engine bay heat soak etc.).

The Methanol is in the mix to add a bit of calorific value to the WMI charge.. Straight water could hinder combustion a bit as the water can soak too much heat once in the cylinder (combustion timing gets retarded), straight methanol whilst it has a cooling effect on the charge will usually result in higher exhaust temperatures as pure alcohols burn hot!

Somewhere between a 30:70 (methanol:water, pretty much winter strength screen wash) and a 50:50 mix is usually about right.

There are also knock on benefits I've seen claimed - can help keep things from gumming/coking up as the head is essentially getting a light steam clean every second rotation, presence of water in the cylinder can help maintain a longer power stroke by providing more mass to expand under the adiabatic heating, all sorts of things...

Downsides are it's another system that needs maintenance, and another fluid level that needs checking and topping up. Water will get everywhere in the head, so for cast iron blocks rust/corrosion can be an issue (perhaps not so much with out Aluminium blocks), and the dangers of relying on WMI to push the engine tune are that you can seriously overheat things if you run out of water/meth whilst driving.

Not a tweak for everyone, but an interesting one to follow definitely!
Thank you for that! I had no idea where it was going in, I know how a turbo etc works!

Quite a novel way of cooling the air to achieve the most efficient combustion.

How much better/worse is a water cooled intercooler?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _The_Editor_ View Post
Cools the charge.

The turbo compresses the air, which heats it up. Intercoolers are in place to help dissipate this extra heat, but Water-Methanol Injection sprays a mist of fluid into the air inlet which cools it even further as the liquid evaporates - like spraying a fine mist of water on to your face! It's the evaporation that sucks a load of latent heat of of the air.

The cooler the air charge, the denser it is, the denser it is, the greater the mass of air you get in the cylinder, and the more air mass you get in the cylinder, the more fuel you can chuck in there to burn!

Also has the effect of cooling the exhaust outlet temperature (good for managing exhaust header temps, engine bay heat soak etc.).

The Methanol is in the mix to add a bit of calorific value to the WMI charge.. Straight water could hinder combustion a bit as the water can soak too much heat once in the cylinder (combustion timing gets retarded), straight methanol whilst it has a cooling effect on the charge will usually result in higher exhaust temperatures as pure alcohols burn hot!

Somewhere between a 30:70 (methanol:water, pretty much winter strength screen wash) and a 50:50 mix is usually about right.

There are also knock on benefits I've seen claimed - can help keep things from gumming/coking up as the head is essentially getting a light steam clean every second rotation, presence of water in the cylinder can help maintain a longer power stroke by providing more mass to expand under the adiabatic heating, all sorts of things...

Downsides are it's another system that needs maintenance, and another fluid level that needs checking and topping up. Water will get everywhere in the head, so for cast iron blocks rust/corrosion can be an issue (perhaps not so much with out Aluminium blocks), and the dangers of relying on WMI to push the engine tune are that you can seriously overheat things if you run out of water/meth whilst driving.

Not a tweak for everyone, but an interesting one to follow definitely!
Nice description of the benefits, will this add-on work on normally aspirated cars as well? e.g. 3.2 V6
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Nice description of the benefits, will this add-on work on normally aspirated cars as well? e.g. 3.2 V6


well yes...

it will give an increase in HP due to the denser air once again but the real benefit would be from being able to advance the timing further before pre-detonation occurs..

it works much better on a forced induction set up though as it will help cool the air back down after the turbo/super charger has compressed and heated it up. used in conjunction with a FMIC which is larger than a side mounted application will give the very best results.

you will have to adjust the mapping accordingly to realise the potential of these mods and they are also best done one at a time so you can accurately judge the effects as you go.

but yeah, NA and water meth does offer some benefits.

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Just got off the phone with Loz about progress on my car...

The good news: Flaps were all present and correct on the old manifold, and it looked pretty good apparently. New de-flapped number is going on regardless, but that's good to know at least!

The bad news: Alternator and the crank pulley are toast - Alternator pulley/bearing is shot and making all sorts of horrible noise on the bench, and the crank pulley was about ready to split. Good thing it was found now rather than later when the aux belt goes bang! All going back together with a fresh belt, fresh tensioner, and new AC deflector...

I think the dent repairs and GTA roll bars will have to wait now... My "Optional Extra" fund as just been absorbed by essential maintenance
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had a spare five mins at work today, so asked the boss if I could fit my fast road cams.
he said YES thanks grayham. all done. run them in over the next couple of days then rolling road time
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had a spare five mins at work today, so asked the boss if I could fit my fast road cams.
he said YES thanks grayham. all done. run them in over the next couple of days then rolling road time
Been looking into getting my cams reprofiled. Let us know the results once you run them in and have a map done
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Will do booked in Wednesday for a dyno run results to follow
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Bought many cleaning things to go for my first 'proper' clean tomorrow..
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Few pics from the Devils Own FB page of today.

Damien.
Just out of interest. How much extra does such a setup add to the cost of vehicle insurance..?
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More good news from Loz today - MOT failed!

For the decat pipe up front

Good thing I kept the original on the shelf in my garage.. Not sure whether to chance another locally, or just refit the original cat... Either way it's a pain in the bumb!
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Er odd.

How did they find it...?

Unless its smoking excessively they would only know if told as its not something you can tell by looking.

My guess is it was and then it was looked for or revealed as the reason.

Mine has a de cat down pipe and passed ...although It was by a whisker on the smoke test.it was at Loz's place so I am guessing same MOT tester.

Let us know what transpires...
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Er odd.

How did they find it...?

Unless its smoking excessively they would only know if told as its not something you can tell by looking.

My guess is it was and then it was looked for or revealed as the reason.

Mine has a de cat down pipe and passed ...although It was by a whisker on the smoke test.it was at Loz's place so I am guessing same MOT tester.

Let us know what transpires...
Not sure at the moment.

It's got the undertray on, but not the lower heat shield so it's visible from the top if you go looking.. Same from below if you're looking back for it...

Loz said this is first he's had for this decat pipe, as new reg has only recently come into force?

I've got until mid April to get a fresh MOT ticket sorted so nothing too immediately worrying... But still an unwelcome surprise!
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After giving up waiting for the dealer to find/send me the promised service history, I decided to get the car serviced anyway.

It looks like that service history will never arrive, as it doesn't look like it's been serviced for a long time.

So a big thanks to Mark at Mototech in Litherland for fitting me in at short notice and getting everything done today so that I can head off for the weekend.

Ended up having a full service, cam belt, water pump, idler, tensioner, alternator belt, EGR valve, gear linkage bushings, pollen filter.

Car now has some serious oomph between the 1000-3500rpm range, rather than the 2500-3500rpm range it's had since I got it. I didn't realise there was anything wrong initially, but did some research on here which led me to believe the EGR valve would be the culprit.
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Well my car is back home on my driveway!

New deflapped inlet mani fitted and functioning nicely

Old manifold in the boot, actually look pretty good all things considered.. Flaps are still fully functional, no big lump of black gunk anywhere... Could use a clean up, but would make a good donor if anyone wants a manifold to mod!

Final bill of work also included timing belt kit and waterpump, new alternator, new crank pulley, new aux belt kit, new handbrake cables, and the MOT failure..

Joe - Smoke test passed on a cold engine. Wasn't a pass with flying colors, but it passed with a bit of breathing room.. Spoke to Paul in the office who said I'm the first he's seen fail for this, apparently test station has just started looking for the cats.. Long and short of it is that my original cat is going back on next weekend and getting a re-test locally.. Paul gave me a top tip for getting that V-Clamp back on as well, so hopefully won't be too much faff!

Nothing else on the MOT other than tyre wear advisories, so clean bill of health in every other respect.

Might try and re-fit the lower heatsheild next time the decat goes on, that should hide it from above.... Then I guess the Alfitsi metal undertray would completely obscure it from below... Not a big problem, just a PITA!

Also managed to fit some Mito windscreen washer jets in the last 5 minutes - much better than the original cobra-venom jets!
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Ok - so big job for a Sunday morning - changed front grille badge and satin alloy surround on the GT. Bit of a pig getting old badge etc off, but with copious amounts of hot soapy water it eventually surrendered. Old badge had faded and had water damage. Looks so much better

Thanks to an old thread on this forum for tips.
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Ok, not technically today but I have cleaned the Alfa. Clay and most of the polishing two weeks ago, last 3 days was spot polishing (still need to do doors and rear quarters) then sealant, a coat of wax over the top, plastics, cleaned windows and a coat of wax on them too. Interior was done two weeks ago too.
Need to do boot, vac and around the seals and also the door jams though. I have badges lined up to replace the faded front, going for the newer style badge all round though. Also have alloys to put on when I can afford some rubber on them.
The car in the back ground is about 1 month old, judging on that, I think I've done a good job with my 55 reg
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More good news from Loz today - MOT failed!

For the decat pipe up front

Good thing I kept the original on the shelf in my garage.. Not sure whether to chance another locally, or just refit the original cat... Either way it's a pain in the bumb!
You having a F'king laugh mate??? That's not a fail?? Did you hear right? So you removed your centre cat too i presume?

Damien.
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You having a F'king laugh mate??? That's not a fail?? Did you hear right? So you removed your centre cat too i presume?

Damien.
It's a fail if the tester spots that a cat has been removed now, as far as I know, assuming he knows one should be there in the first place.

Still an unlucky fail though, luckily not a bad job to switch them over.
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