Coming back to GT ownership after a 3 year break, and build thread...:-) - Page 10 - Alfa Romeo Forum
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So attended the annual TT owners club RR event yesterday. Was a big part of that scene for a while with my last project. Was strange having the GT there. And although it was social the Audi scene very different to the Alfa scene. A few of my friends now putting out well over 300bhp with their projects.

Now it got me thinking on the engine performance of my GT, and where i am heading. Plus what i really want to achieve?

Being used to cars with much more bhp than my presently modified GT, i am getting hungry for more reliable power again. Sure i could WMI my present setup, which to be honest feels bloody good. Or i could go bigger turbo with a GTB setup from Joel at JTD performance. Which with the right map, exhaust and WMI would get me closer to 260bhp and near 500lb ft of torque. Joel has been running his GTB setup on his modified 147 for a while now and is producing solid power and reliability day after day.

And then their is option 2. Go for a busso GT 3.2. And transfer my chassis mods to that car. Have her mapped, nice exhaust a few other mods and hopefully 260 is achievable with an unbelievable soundtrack too. Although absolute reliability is important ,I don't do huge mileage per annum. So this would be feasible?

Thing is i have a great rare low mileage example of the cloverleaf, the gearbox is lovely, clutch action super light. And she has potential. So my mind is torn in what is best to do. I couldnt bare to own another GT with heavy clutch pedal which this model suffers with. And finding a decent GT 3.2 with q2 and without starting replacing worn out stuff gain is nigh on impossible in this day and age. And would she be as fast and torquey as my car with GTB turbo conversion? Its just time for slight deliberation now, before i consider possible my next step. I am sure if i did go GTB i could sell my present excellent hybrid turbo and downpipe no problem?

So thats my thoughts today after yesterdays social experience..lol. Oh and i was gutted i couldn't run as she was too low at the front, and i didn't have my C spanner with me for a quick adjustment to clear the RR bed.. Was really looking forward to seeing what she put out in her new state of tune. Will go back soon with adjusted front suspension for the day.

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"Who thought diesels could be this bloody fun"

Eibach pro S coilovers. Eibach ARB kit. Autolusso remap. JTD performance high flow downpipe. Bespoke spec Turbo Dynamics hybrid.JTD performance FMIC kit.JTD performance high flow downpipe. Autolusso de swirl flap mod.Autolusso Mocal oil cooler kit. Autolusso smf GTA clutch kit. GTA 330mm big brake kit.JTD perf inlet pipe.Wizard exhaust system. 19x8 OZ superleggera's.
"big thanks to Ned and the lads at Autolusso"
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Think you'd be mad to swap given the work undertaken.

You've got it to a place you are reasonably happy with and just because their cars have more horsesddoesn't mean you should chase all out power.

Unless you are going to the track and then you've started with the wrong car.

If you want more power there are ways pf getting the diesel to do it but then you'll never use it on the road anyway. Just chasing figures.

Be happy with what you have and enjoy it. You've spent far more than most do to be happy and I think getting a v6 you'd miss out on what you've got in order to hit some figures.
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numbers...meh..

its about how the car feels..a V6 will not match your clover for torque, which is such a big part of the ''meaty'' feel of the GT, I think keep it, your are up to your neck and would probably regret it if you don't see your project through to the end.

WMI is a good idea for many reasons, power, economy and a really significant gain in both area's but siphoning and hydro locking are risks here and if you don't do it right or preferably have a switchable map it can be disaster for your engine.

but...if you really want to push the limits its the next most obvious thing to do.
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Diesel will always have more torque unless you go mad on a 3.8 supercharged busso.. but depends on what your trying to achieve

tuned busso will sound amazing give enough torque and power for fun motoring but maybe not as much torque as the diesel lump. A mate has a quick tuned golf 1.9 diesel its ok quick but sounds awful and leaves clouds of dirty black smoke every-time has gives it some stick.. my sounds like god is cheering me to a win every-time i drive it..
listen to and drive a busso equipped gt before you make up your mind
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If you like light clutches, don't bother with a V6, they are heavy. You get used to it though, I do and I flit from the lightness of my 2.4 jtdm clutch to the V6 left calf definer.
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Thanks guys really appreciate the comments. I do love my car. I just need to consider my options before going forward. I really hope to drive or experience a GT 3.2 soon to get an idea. I have driven a standard 156 GTA and as lovely and free revving as she was i don't think she had the midrange usable torque my modified clover has. Although Neds 3.8 conversion which was unreal.
Fifth gear in my car is so usable, i drove to heathrow today to the airline training centre and back, and 5th gear pulls solid like a freight train from 2.5 to the red line. Its addictive. So nice to have solid reliable power now. The way the modified diesel delivers its low down torque is really fun to use, especially when you have a great handling chassis.

Not making any hasty decisions yet, weighing up the pro's and cons.

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If you like light clutches, don't bother with a V6, they are heavy. You get used to it though, I do and I flit from the lightness of my 2.4 jtdm clutch to the V6 left calf definer.
Really Alex?

Thats one absolutely lovely thing about my GT its clutch is light and so lovely to use, the gearbox action is fantastic. My last GT had a particularly heavy clutch and i couldn't deal with it again..

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GT JTD & GT V6 use basically the same design clutch system, they have the same issues regarding stiffness. When they're stiff its usually because the pressure plate fingers have hardened, a new clutch fixes it but also the mechanism needs cleaning & lubricating, as they can gum up and contribute to stiffness as well.
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There's nothing wrong with the gearbox action, it's just a heavy clutch pedal. I only think about it for a few secs or if I'm stuck in bad traffic.
I'm not sure how a standard V6 is, but mine (remapped) can be a very lazy drive, I mean I rarely have to change gear around town. That's not to say I go out of my way to strain the drivetrain, but my remapped diesel 159 will shudder and stall should I use it the way I can use the V6. That's why I wish I'd have bought a V6 instead of the diesel! I'm not sure which gear I could set off from standstill in, but it'd be a high one- never seen the point in that though, got a gearbox haven't I.

I honestly think in your case it'd be like chasing the Girl you've always wanted, you get her, things happen, but it wasn't all you thought it'd be and 2 weeks later you're bored again.
You also have to bear in mind things like dials, Cloverleaf dials are nice, do you go for a low tax V6 or a newer model with high tax?

And then you'll start modding it, you'll spend a shed load of money, but it's fun hobby right? So what if you want to lash some cash on it.

I absolutely love mine, but 50% of that love is the engine note. It's lazy, it's fast, it's calm, it's noisy. I wouldn't want to drive it as fast as its capable on the roads, but hey if you can handle it and you need more......3.8.

It's funny how our we love our Alfas one week especially after a bit of tweeking, can't get any better, then the next they're not good enough. Had this yesterday on the roads of Sheffield, Christ that Council need to spend some money on Tarmac.
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You can't really compare Ned's car. His business is based on Alfa's and therfore his car should be a reflection of the company.

un less you do something like that for a living you are always going to struggle to get there. Unless you have unlimited time and money. (In which case why have an Alfa when there are Ferrari's about...)

Just enjoy your car and maybe spend money on doing fun events or travelling with it or learning to drive it in a better way. Take some classes etc...

Money spent being a better driver will always show how skilled some one is rather than having an extra 20hp...
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Thanks guys some really great comment there. And points to ponder.

I enjoy and drive my car quite quickly, when safe to do so, and i do enjoy the way the hybrid JTD puts the power down. Also the power up the higher end of the rev range the hybrid now produces is a lot better than the std setup.
And there is always the point that i will get a shock with the 3.2 with fuel consumption, especially if i drive her like mine, plus double the road tax and the fact it may not have the low stonking usable midrange power i love so much. And i do enjoy the newness of my 2010 mint clover, dials etc.
So really its down to the 3.2's lovely engine sound and the creamy peaky rev range...Anything to increase bhp by a considerable bit will cost the price of the car? Which to be honest is out of my realm of financial reach and reality.

I think i just have to grin and bear the stigma of the diesel startup noise, and not go to other car brands RR days to mess my head up..lol..

Plus the thought of starting again all over with another car does put the fear into me. We all know the GT's have their idiosyncrasies. Especially after spending time making my car solid. I really appreciate the comments guys. Maybe the gorgeous busso is not right for me right now. So my initial decision to go with my clover was probably the right one for me in the long term.

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If you had just started with it then you might not be thinking about it.

If you really wanted more power you'd need the 5 pot 2.4.
You'd have to swap to a 156 or get an engine transplant with all the gubbins to make it all work. Would be a bit of a nightmare but do able.

I'd imagine the 2.4 20v would really give the V6 a run for the money. The gearbox is a bit pants on it though. But the long gear ratios do make for excellent midrange over taking. Espcially once mapped.

The 5 pot doesn't even sound horrendous either. Bit more overlap on the firing.

Still even then you might be able to eek out 250hp reliable power. But it'll be a torque monster.
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If you had just started with it then you might not be thinking about it.

If you really wanted more power you'd need the 5 pot 2.4.
You'd have to swap to a 156 or get an engine transplant with all the gubbins to make it all work. Would be a bit of a nightmare but do able.

I'd imagine the 2.4 20v would really give the V6 a run for the money. The gearbox is a bit pants on it though. But the long gear ratios do make for excellent midrange over taking. Espcially once mapped.

The 5 pot doesn't even sound horrendous either. Bit more overlap on the firing.

Still even then you might be able to eek out 250hp reliable power. But it'll be a torque monster.
Scotty why would i need to do that? Joel does a plug and play GTB turbo kit and i could be running 270+ and 500llbft with WMI. Granted not a 5cld but in my opinion would be immense in my GT..

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Just an idea more than anything. Throwing it into the mix. Would be a one of a kind in a GT. The diesel engine it should have got.

but as you say there are other more viable ways of getting power without the weight penalty.

Still think you should be happy with it. Concentrate on other things as I previously said. Bound to have a better impact than all out power.
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Just an idea more than anything. Throwing it into the mix. Would be a one of a kind in a GT. The diesel engine it should have got.

but as you say there are other more viable ways of getting power without the weight penalty.

Still think you should be happy with it. Concentrate on other things as I previously said. Bound to have a better impact than all out power.
I think i have to maximise and make the best out of what i have got first... WMI and exhaust, then some time live mapping on a RR.. I am sure another 30 bhp would be achievable with this turbo, safely under the right conditions. See how that feels for a start eh.

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Yeah but then where does it end?
We all want something more than what we have. Its human nature for some of us.

But what use is an extra 30hp if you can't use it. I for one don't use all the full 140hp i have on the road. Probably closer to half that on a daily basis. Couple blips up to the redline daily maybe. But simply put the car then spends most the time circa 60mph (think my average speed is actually closer to 41mph last i checked).

Heck when I used to drive in the city my average was 19mph. I could cycle quicker (I've got the data for it too. I averaged 21mph).

My car isn't the fastest by a long shot. But most would struggle to keep up because I've spent time at a track. Doing driving schools and motorsport to best learn how to use that power.

If you are just going for a bit of peacocking with well my car's now @ 250hp and 500nm torques that's great. You've achieved something and maybe the fun is getting it to that point.
I learn't long ago the money is just better spent on small tweaks and maybe buying the right car in the first place.
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Yeah but then where does it end?
We all want something more than what we have. Its human nature for some of us.

But what use is an extra 30hp if you can't use it. I for one don't use all the full 140hp i have on the road. Probably closer to half that on a daily basis. Couple blips up to the redline daily maybe. But simply put the car then spends most the time circa 60mph (think my average speed is actually closer to 41mph last i checked).

Heck when I used to drive in the city my average was 19mph. I could cycle quicker (I've got the data for it too. I averaged 21mph).

My car isn't the fastest by a long shot. But most would struggle to keep up because I've spent time at a track. Doing driving schools and motorsport to best learn how to use that power.

If you are just going for a bit of peacocking with well my car's now @ 250hp and 500nm torques that's great. You've achieved something and maybe the fun is getting it to that point.
I learn't long ago the money is just better spent on small tweaks and maybe buying the right car in the first place.
Scotty i understand the notion and the concept of what you are trying to say. But i do use the cars power. I don't spend my morning and days at 5mph in traffic. Due to the pattern and nature of my job. Its more of a fun toy to me. The 250bhp i mentioned is very average for a car by today's standards. I could never of owned the car in standard form, with its average lackluster performance and chassis. Now it has real performance sparkle, and it's so much safer and nicer to drive.

I certainly am not interested in "Peacocking" as you say. And quite frankly wouldn't have bought her if that was my intention. My goal is to safely develop her to her full potential. Bearing in mind the reliability balance. I am carefully doing my research, and talking to people in the know who have experience in the field.

The comment that i should have bought the right car in the first place. I suppose i get a kick out of slowly developing a machine, seeing and feeling it progress into something very capable and different to anything else on the road. Ive always had a soft spot for the GT, the cloverleaf 170 particularly. Also yes she is a bit of a strange wildcard coupe to develop. My audi mates don't get it, and never will. Economically it's always a losing situation, as we all know you never get what you put into a project. I am acutely aware of that. I dont think i will do this kind of project again, but in my mind it was so necessary with the this particular car. It always had potential. I think now she is definitely more worthy of her sacred cloverleaf badge.

Damien.
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I'd imagine the average horsepower of the UK car in 2015 would be closer to 150hp rather than 250hp.
Might be average for a sports car maybe now.

Average engine size for 2008 was something like 1.8 so most of those are sub 150hp.

Maybe peacocking is the wrong term that I used. But what I mean is that you might be chasing an errand that you will never fulfill. I mean when you get to 250hp won't you want that bit more again?

I wouldn't worry about Audi friends too much.

Good luck in what you choose to do going forward.
But there's only so much you can ever get out of a 1.9 in standard trim before the internals need upgrading...

Let alone the fact the weight balance is 60/40 and its front wheel drive.
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I'd imagine the average horsepower of the UK car in 2015 would be closer to 150hp rather than 250hp.
Might be average for a sports car maybe now.

Average engine size for 2008 was something like 1.8 so most of those are sub 150hp.

Maybe peacocking is the wrong term that I used. But what I mean is that you might be chasing an errand that you will never fulfill. I mean when you get to 250hp won't you want that bit more again?

I wouldn't worry about Audi friends too much.

Good luck in what you choose to do going forward.
But there's only so much you can ever get out of a 1.9 in standard trim before the internals need upgrading...

Let alone the fact the weight balance is 60/40 and its front wheel drive.
Cheers mate..I think?

I compared to the average sports coupe, because that is what i am trying to achieve. The 1.8t kicks off around 150 to 240 in the TTqs. So really its ballpark. The ensuing 2litre Tfsi was such a better engine.

I don't compare to my audi pals...They are all chasing numbers. I was there done that, i got rid of my modified qs because the chassis was uncommunicative, steering was dull and the engine was not my cup of tea, had to bray the life out of it to get its power! Not a fan. Already my Gt is so much better to drive and steer, and the power delivery is effortless, with a lovely wave of usable torque.

Joel has proved the 1.9jtd can be made into something reliable solid and really fast. 270 and 500lbft is not to be sniffed at. And with the q2 the chassis can handle it. And so can the internals. Obviously careful mapping is essential.

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There's a limit to front wheel drive and balance though. Those you can't get round. Still rather have a GT than a TT any day.
Drove a friends TT 1.8T and steering was bland. Inside is nice enough I found (Lacks the Italian flair but least the switch gear is solid enough). The 4 wheel drive system is a bit well pants. Actually feels like it hinders turn in.

And to top if off the rear seat space is laughable. No point in seats being there.
You'll also look like a right woofter driving it.

GT is simply a different car altogether.
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There's a limit to front wheel drive and balance though. Those you can't get round. Still rather have a GT than a TT any day.
Drove a friends TT 1.8T and steering was bland. Inside is nice enough I found (Lacks the Italian flair but least the switch gear is solid enough). The 4 wheel drive system is a bit well pants. Actually feels like it hinders turn in.

And to top if off the rear seat space is laughable. No point in seats being there.
You'll also look like a right woofter driving it.

GT is simply a different car altogether.
all good points from both Scotty and Damien, I particularly like the ''woofter'' comment and have to say the GT is absolutely NOT a girls car.. what ever anyone wants to say your car DOES say a lot about you, even if it is just ''I don't care what car I drive''

lets be honest for a ''sports coupe'' its only 3/4 finished from the factory, but most drivers will be happy with that, us guys clearly want a little more and for me it was the combination of attributes that the GT has going for it that made it a hands down choice...TWICE! i'm on my second and still can't think of a car that better balances beauty and practicality...and as for the diesel engine, well if porsche can stick one in a panamera then whats the issue?

perspective though, it has in stock form POTENTIAL. it requires work on the suspension the map and consequently the transmission in order for the performance to live up to what those gorgeous sleek lines promise, and TBH for me THAT'S what its all about, making it go as fast as it looks like it should.

otherwise it sort of like having a ferrari with a micra engine in it!

the GT deserves to be fast, it wants to be fast and it should be up there with the likes of the BMW 3 series and the Audi TT, but in stock form a Mazda 3 sport would own it.


That's frankly embarrassing! Alfa will have to do better in future. They can and do make beautiful cars but for one reason or another the performance is never quite where it should be.

for a Marque with such rich racing heritage its not right, people expect them to be faster than the average Golf TDI..I hope the Guilia is proper quick and I mean M3 and M5 quick. even if you don't use it its good to know its there.

it's an Alfa...its how it SHOULD be.


I rest my case.
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Nicely put Joe..

Oh and by the way Scotty my modified TT QS was not a girls car and i ain't no mincer either..

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Love that TT ...more special that the GT in my opinion.

Wouldn't it have been easier to buy a 2.4 brera and tweak that with some suspension and remap mods. I just couldn't throw so much cash at a car with the very comfortable, but outdated GT interior and the rather modest 1.9 engine. For me, the razmataz of hybrid turbos, adjustable suspension, WMI, all stops when its a 1.9 diesel under the hood.

I love my GT and I bought it nearly new, about 8 years ago. I've done a few mods, some via mechanic, but most DIY. Now, it doesn't seem like the right car to be trying to drag into 2015's tuning potential. Maybe mine is getting on a bit?

I like seeing your mods though. I thought you were joking when you stripped out the rear seats lol.
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Originally Posted by t3yls View Post
Love that TT ...more special that the GT in my opinion.

Wouldn't it have been easier to buy a 2.4 brera and tweak that with some suspension and remap mods. I just couldn't throw so much cash at a car with the very comfortable, but outdated GT interior and the rather modest 1.9 engine. For me, the razmataz of hybrid turbos, adjustable suspension, WMI, all stops when its a 1.9 diesel under the hood.

I love my GT and I bought it nearly new, about 8 years ago. I've done a few mods, some via mechanic, but most DIY. Now, it doesn't seem like the right car to be trying to drag into 2015's tuning potential. Maybe mine is getting on a bit?

I like seeing your mods though. I thought you were joking when you stripped out the rear seats lol.
see t3yls I don't agree...

I like the TT don't get me wrong, but wouldn't look twice at it....they are common as muck!


see 10 a day...were as if I see another GT its maybe one a week, if that. you would normally pay a huge premium for that kind of exclusivity.

and I don't agree about the interior either especially after the brand new M3 that I had as a hire car between GT's...very Blah.

nicely bolted together but blah drive, interior and exterior styling.

I think the GT has it over the brera too having driven 3 or four and really wanting one I kept coming back to the GT on usable back seats roomy boot, lighter chassis and handling.

the Brera is a heavy lump and as a result has poor economy on all of the engines. Other than the prodrive it would be pasted by the equivalent engined GT.

I mean what really out there that looks great and offers all the GT does?

you have to go into serious money!

porsche panamera or toyota GT, or a used maserati 3200 or a DB9 none have the economy..have to admit I do like the Z4 coupe but only two seats and poor bootspace even though they are coming down in price.

audi smaudi! wouldn't touch one.
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