Camber issue on front axle 147, 156 & GT - Alfa Romeo Forum
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(Post Link) post #1 of 68 Old 10-07-13 Thread Starter
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Camber issue on front axle 147, 156 & GT

Hi,

I'm a Dutch Alfa 156 2.0 SW owner (also have 155 WB V6 ) and active on the Dutch Alfa forum! I'm reading same stuff on your forum also, but I'm not really active.
Since I've helped same people with the camber issue (especially in Belgium, wheel alignment is part of the MOT, I thought maybe I can post my topic about the camber correction kit here.

I’ve engineered this correction kit, because I, myself but also a lot of fellow Alfa owners who lower their Alfa with more than 30mm will have a huge amount of camber, with results in massive tyre wear. (and also less steering precision, because mostly people align the front wheels neutral or even toe in, just to try and control ‘excessive tyre wear'.

The buses are engineered to make sure that no forced miss aligned load is inflicted on either the bolt or the rubber buses that are in the upper wish bone arm, so lifetime is not negative influenced!

The buses will make sure you will lose 1 degree of camber, and gain a little caster. This correction is fixed!

Here the alignment report of my own 156 (lowerd by Eibach sport kit with Bilstein B8)Height, center wheel to wheel arch front 340mm, for rear approx. 345!

Wielvlucht = camber
Askanteling = caster
Sporing (when negative it is toe out, when positive its tow in).

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/...EA26F99B20.jpg

After fitting the camber correction kit, here is the new wheel alignment report:

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/...EA2B9F3B3B.jpg
As you can see both camber and caster are influenced, both within sport chassis value’s!

Here a picture of the buses:

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/...E0758B798E.jpg
Topmounts and wishbones:

http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/...E0827909F1.jpg


Best regards

Toon

Last edited by bullettooth; 10-07-13 at 20:57.
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Hi Toon and welcome ,

that's very interesting and good work - I have a 40mm lower GT and as you correctly state have been running neutral toe to keep tyre wear under control . They look really well made , are you planning to market them and have you a photo of them in situ ?
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(Post Link) post #3 of 68 Old 11-07-13 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saintetienne View Post
Hi Toon and welcome ,

that's very interesting and good work - I have a 40mm lower GT and as you correctly state have been running neutral toe to keep tyre wear under control . They look really well made , are you planning to market them and have you a photo of them in situ ?
Hi,

I'll make some picture's and post them upcoming weekend!

I've made a batch so it is possible to buy them! There are quite a few people in Holland and Belgian who drive with this correction kit.

For the rear axle it’s easier to control either excessive tyre wear or cubbing which can also be a problem with lowered Alfa 147, 156 and GT’s.
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Hello Bullettooth

These look very interesting; please let me know how much for a car set, delivered to the uk? I will be replacing my upper wishbones later this year; these sound like an excellent upgrade.

Many thanks or danke veldt!

Cheerio
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I would love to buy a set please :-)
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I think the revised standard spec from Alfa for front toe is 0mm. Adding toe will result in increased tyre wear, regardless of lowered or standard height. If you correct camber and add toe, you will still get increased tyre wear. Generally, camber has little or no effect on tyre wear.

That's not to say correcting the camber isn't a good idea, just beware that it will not solve a tyre wear issue by itself. I agree that there is a loss of sharpness to the steering when you go from some toe to no toe.

If I read the alignment printout correctly, your car only had just over 2 deg of negative camber to begin with, so that's not really excessive, and only slightly over the spec of 1.5 deg.

Also - one of my 156's is lowered and does not wear front tyres excessively - toe set to 0. My other one is std height but previous owner had it set to 2mm toe out, so front tyre wear was high. I had it corrected to 0mm toe and tyre wear is now normal.
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My camber is -2.20 on the drivers side, will the above help? Bad tyre wear on mine too :-( toe on that side is -0.05
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Do you mean 0.05mm? That's pretty close to 0mm. I'd get it to a good 4 wheel alignment place and see what they think. If the camber is significantly different left to right then you should check for damage.
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(Post Link) post #9 of 68 Old 12-07-13 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sprint_veloce View Post
I think the revised standard spec from Alfa for front toe is 0mm. Adding toe will result in increased tyre wear, regardless of lowered or standard height. If you correct camber and add toe, you will still get increased tyre wear. Generally, camber has little or no effect on tyre wear.

That's not to say correcting the camber isn't a good idea, just beware that it will not solve a tyre wear issue by itself. I agree that there is a loss of sharpness to the steering when you go from some toe to no toe.

If I read the alignment printout correctly, your car only had just over 2 deg of negative camber to begin with, so that's not really excessive, and only slightly over the spec of 1.5 deg.

Also - one of my 156's is lowered and does not wear front tyres excessively - toe set to 0. My other one is std height but previous owner had it set to 2mm toe out, so front tyre wear was high. I had it corrected to 0mm toe and tyre wear is now normal.
I do not completely agree with you!

Excessive tire wear is (apart from way of driving, tire pressure and type of tire) always influenced by wheel alignment!
Negative camber, results is more grip while cornering, this is of course pleased! Alfa made the 156 with more camber than its competitors. To have maximum joy (read precision) in steering, a FFWD car needs to have toe out on front axle!
The combination of toe out and negative camber result in steering precision and lots of grip while cornering, the price you pay is huge tire wear on the inside of your tires!
Negative camber always results in more tire wear (on the inside) especially when you align toe out!
Alfa gifs a spec of -3 up to + 3 min per wheel toe for sport chassis (lowered -25mm) . This is already a compromise between tire wear and steering. Non sport chassis is -2 , upto -10, so toe out! (toe is given in minutes, per wheel).
That’s why a GTA upright is different! Less camber while also approx. 25mm lowered! Spec on aliment
- 1, up to -7 (so just toe out!).
So if you have problem with excessive tire wear ( inside) and have a lowered Alfa 147, 156 or GT and more than 1.5 degree camber this can help you gain steering precision and get rid off excessive tire wear on the inside!

Tip:
When you are having your Alfa aligned, Let them shift the sub frame so that the differences on camber and caster between left and right are being equalized.



(Ok if you only corner, so drive your Alfa just for fun, it could happen you will have more tire wear on the outside, but if you commute and drive a lot of straight lines like high way, you tires will wear more (inside) with toe out and negative camber!)
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(Post Link) post #10 of 68 Old 12-07-13 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a17esh View Post
My camber is -2.20 on the drivers side, will the above help? Bad tyre wear on mine too :-( toe on that side is -0.05
I expect that your nearside is approx -1.8 to - 2.2.

So yes the camber correction kit is going to help you!

Ideal situation for you would be:

approx 1 degree negatief camber (per side) and approx 3minut toe out per wheel!

Last edited by bullettooth; 12-07-13 at 09:31.
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But Alfa's revised front toe spec is 0mm. If you want to add toe to sharpen turn in (closer to a track setting), you should expect increased tyre wear, regardless of camber.

I agree that the combination of toe and negative camber causes a certain pattern of tyre wear (inside edge). My point is that this will not change if you have 1 deg of negative or 2 deg. If it was that critical, cars would have camber adjustment from the factory, but that's rare. Whereas all cars have very fine front toe adjustment.

Don't get me wrong - excessive negative camber is in no way desirable - I have an alfasud which is lowered and I reduced the negative camber back to 1.5deg, though by somewhat less elegant means than you have used. It's just that tyre wear is separate.
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(Post Link) post #12 of 68 Old 12-07-13 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sprint_veloce View Post
But Alfa's revised front toe spec is 0mm. If you want to add toe to sharpen turn in (closer to a track setting), you should expect increased tyre wear, regardless of camber.

I agree that the combination of toe and negative camber causes a certain pattern of tyre wear (inside edge). My point is that this will not change if you have 1 deg of negative or 2 deg. If it was that critical, cars would have camber adjustment from the factory, but that's rare. Whereas all cars have very fine front toe adjustment.

Don't get me wrong - excessive negative camber is in no way desirable - I have an alfasud which is lowered and I reduced the negative camber back to 1.5deg, though by somewhat less elegant means than you have used. It's just that tyre wear is separate.
Alfa's revised front toe is NOT generic 0!!! (it is advisable for sport chassis)

For normal heigt and GTA its toe out!
GTA = -2.4 ± 1 mm (with camber spec of 0.8 degree)
STD -2.02 ± 1 mm (with camber spec of 0.7 ± 0.3 degree)

So, both toe out!

I'm pretty damn sure if you align your Alfa (lowered, with my compenstaion set) or not lowered approx 1 degree negative camber with, lets say 1.5mm toe out, you will gain lots of fun steering without tires wearing out on inside edge!!

1 or 2 degree camber is a lot of difference!!!!


The only reason that cars don't have camber and or caster compensation built in is because they have become 'disposable products' and production tolerances are becoming smaller! There is no need for a car manufacturer to build in this feature. Only real sports cars, that’s a whole other league.
Back in the early days, cars where featured with caster and camber adjust possibilities, that was because the production tolerances were bigger. They needed the adjustments their self

Last edited by bullettooth; 12-07-13 at 13:30.
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camber out = tyre wear!!!!

We gonna get me a set of these sold? I need em!
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I suppose this fits the GTAs as well
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A quick search, from some Honda tuning website:

Camber gets somewhat of a bad rap within the automotive industry. The typical premature wear pattern people notice on a lowered car is due to excessive inner tire wear. People naturally associate the leaning of the wheel with this inner wear. Thus, they determine the fix for the wear is to install a camber kit which will allow adjustment of the camber. If tire wear is your concern, know that camber alone is not to blame. The reality is that a bad toe setting will wear tires much faster than camber will.

Read more: Camber 101, Everything You Need To Know - Tech - Honda Tuning Magazine
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(Post Link) post #16 of 68 Old 15-07-13 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sprint_veloce View Post
A quick search, from some Honda tuning website:

Camber gets somewhat of a bad rap within the automotive industry. The typical premature wear pattern people notice on a lowered car is due to excessive inner tire wear. People naturally associate the leaning of the wheel with this inner wear. Thus, they determine the fix for the wear is to install a camber kit which will allow adjustment of the camber. If tire wear is your concern, know that camber alone is not to blame. The reality is that a bad toe setting will wear tires much faster than camber will.

Read more: Camber 101, Everything You Need To Know - Tech - Honda Tuning Magazine
As I explained it is not just the amount of camber.....

The combination between negative camber and toe out!!!!


Both are pleasant and thus welcome, but if one of them becomes 'to big’, (read too much toe out and or camber). your tires will wear excessively!

The camber correction kit can provide a nice average on your wheel alignment! Exactly as Alfa intended to it to be!! When your Alfa isn’t lowered!!!
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Email sent btw - really want a kit :-).
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(Post Link) post #18 of 68 Old 15-07-13 Thread Starter
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Email sent btw - really want a kit :-).
Please email me on toonoptrootathotmaildotcom

inbox here is very small.

Thanx
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All the more reason to keep standard height and use the setup correctly ;-)
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(Post Link) post #20 of 68 Old 23-07-13 Thread Starter
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All the more reason to keep standard height and use the setup correctly ;-)
Maybe...

But with the camber correction set, the alignment can be done according Alfa revised specs and you got best of both worlds!

Lowered (center of gravity) so looks and cornering performance, including agile steering without excessive tire wear!
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How much adjustment is there?
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(Post Link) post #22 of 68 Old 23-07-13 Thread Starter
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How much adjustment is there?
Thats given in the opening statement and can also be found in the added alignment reports.

1 degree reduce of camber!
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how do you set up the bushes, is there a correct orientation to fit the bushes or do you rotate them on the car to get the desired setting?
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how do you set up the bushes, is there a correct orientation to fit the bushes or do you rotate them on the car to get the desired setting?

HI,

Indeed there is one optimal postion of the bushes! One thing needs to be take in concederation and that is they are 180 degree rotated from each other. For de rest its best to place them ' in the horizontal plane' that way you will get the maximal of compenstaion, 1 degree.

When you decide to buy them I'll email a manuel, guided with photo's to see how it's done.
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Possible to buy?

Hi there, you wouldn't happen to have another set I could buy from you!
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