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Hi,Who is running single mass flywheel on jtd and what mileage have you done so far?

16K views 36 replies 14 participants last post by  LittleGTV 
#1 ·
Hi, every one would like to know whos running on single mass flywheel with jtd engine and what mileage have you done so far, as many are opposed to this conversion as it might cause damage to gearbox or other parts? as for myself i am fairly new to this site, owning alfa 156 2.4 10v jtd for 6 months,and had done the single mass flywheel conversion using fiat coupe 20v turbo flywheel resurfaced with 156/147 gta standard clutch.So far have done troble free 2500 miles, however driving style had to be changed as its very jerky under 1600rpm, in 3rd,4th and 5th gear. Your own experience pls
 
#2 ·
Hi,I am running the same conversion,but have only done about 500 miles!
So far I have discovered that,as you have,you have to change down earlier in the higher gears,I was expecting that,the dmf absorbs the vibrations,without it you just gotta change gear!It's like proper driving again.
I noticed a slight loss of low down torque,again I think down to the action of the dmf and it's springs,possibly,this actually makes low speed driving smoother as the accelerator movement now corresponds to the amount of acceleration.
I like the more positive,direct feel of the clutch and the fact pulling off is way smoother than it used to be(my dmf was absolutely §hagged . . . .as was the clutch!)
I think my gearbox is tired,however,(slight crunch between gear changes and a slight whir when in neutral,that the rattling old clutch was disguising!)so it will be interesting to see how long it lasts.
As for the damage this mod may or may not cause,from a personal viewpoint,if your driving style changes slightly to take into account the changed characteristics I can't really see that the longevity of the mechanicals will be compromised.If you do traffic light drag racing,then you may break something,but you would with a dmf fitted,too I think.The thing that seems to be working harder in my bella is the engine mounts,they seem to be a little soft allowing a bit of engine movement.Maybe they are the weak link?
I have heard the stories of crankshafts breaking,but from the research I did,this usually came from people with a vested interest in dual mass flywheels or was third or fourth hand,ie a mate of a mate had a friend kinda thing!
If my crank breaks tomorrow . . . . .:(
 
#3 ·
I don't undertstand why people get so upetty about the single mass flywheel conversion. I have seen several guys on here do it with great results and now you two have as well :thumbs: yes I heard stories about pulling the first motion shaft out of the box but I can't see it for one simple reason. There is still a spring part of the clutch. On the jtd the dmf is sprung. On the smf conversion the GTA clutch plate id sprung effectively doing the same job. I imagine its a little more harsh as you say and the engine won't be quite as smooth but other than that I think you'll be fine. :thumbs: enjoy
 
#4 ·
Hi, thanx for your replies , I agree with you , its more down to driving style and its feel like petrol car more than diesel now, haven't noticed any change in low torque but it spins bit faster higher up or is it just me, now I have to seriously watch the red line so quick it gets to ,:lol:
 
#5 ·
There are conversions for VAG group and Ford tdi's that have had no problems at all,my wifes Rover is a diesel with a solid flywheel,from factory so I can't see any problem with it apart from the slight loss of refinement,which to be honest is negligable on mine due to the fact the dmf was so worn anyway!
I think the change in torque characteristics could be down to the lighter flywheel,mine doesn't get to the red line quicker,it gets to sulk mode quicker!:lol: the turbo needs cleaning!:rolleyes: but you are right about it revving faster,think the fuel economy is slightly better,too(another dmf myth blown out of the water?).I haven't checked it accurately,but it is definately no worse!
 
#8 ·
cool,ive got a vibration on the middle point of the pedal and notchy gears so im guessing the set-up is due for a change (96k),ive just put the best box oil availiable and engine oil in (redline racing and millers).

Anyone got a parts list of the strongest set-up availiable (parts needed) then as i may get her re-mapped after a new cltuch and slave cylinder :D
 
#12 ·
The power loss is really negligable and really doesn't make any difference to everyday driving,just the op asked for peoples thoughts/experiences on the smf conversion and I noticed on one particular hill that I had to keep the revs slightly higher or the car would slow down, where as before it would hold its pace.As I said it really makes very little,or no,difference to everyday driving,but I noticed it!

I put the kit together myself,(a few others on here have,too)20v flywheel,gta clutch kit and shorter flywheel bolts.The gta clutch has 12(i think)bolt holes(it only came with six new bolts,tho!) but the 20v flywheel only has six tapped holes to secure the clutch cover.The original dmf clutch also only has six bolts(if i remember correctly!).
The autolusso kit looks like a very nice bit of kit,I'd already bought the bits to do the conversion(it cost a little less,too,but the 20v fw was secondhand)before Autolusso released their kit,otherwise I would have seriously thought about getting it.Having said that,I have had no problems with the bits I am using:cool:

People lighten the flywheel(and balance them)to reduce power loss at higher rpm and to allow the engine to spin up(and slow down) quicker,it is hard work trying to spin a heavy lump of metal.
The smf is lighter than the dmf anyway,so really doesn't need lightening,imho.

Hope that helps!All the best, Nathan
 
#15 ·
We have had one in our 147 JTD courtesy car for 2 years and 40k with no trouble, the only thing I have noticed is a very slight rattle from the clutch at tick over, don't think it is a problem though.

I don't see how it can cause gearbox problem as the gearbox in the diesel is exactly the same as the one fitted to 147/156 GTA with different final ration and bell housing and that has a solid flywheel

Ned
 
#16 ·
You won't lose out by fitting it at all,flat out is just the same!it may even get there quicker!mine feels more responsive when the revs are higher!:D
Not sure about the remap,as I haven't had mine done . . .yet;) but I am planning on it eventually(pennies allowing!)

awsome bud,so when does a 1.9 16v jtd loose its power band,id say mine is 3.5k tops :lol:
 
#17 ·
The 'box in mine is tired and it rattles,it was probably doing it before i changed the dmf to smf,I just couldn't hear it over the dmf death rattle,probably what made the box rattle in the first place!Think I have done about 4k since the swap and it is no worse now,so I agree with Ned.If it was going to damage the 'box,mine would probably be dead by now!
Ned,are the 10v 136bhp,140 and 150 boxes the same?Mine is the 140bhp want to get one before it finally gives up!six speed would be nice,but there are clearance issues with the 5 pot. . . .
Oh yeah,Mick, 3.5k?when mine goes into sulk mode I am lucky if the power band is 1.5k!!!:cry:
 
#24 · (Edited)
There is no problem. the flywheel is thinner, the clutch is fatter. Ta da!


Mine's been on 2years so far. Conversion is a very do-able home improvement, did mine on the drive over a weekend with a trolley jack, two axle stands and an engine hoist. didn't need to remove subframe and made a new collar out of toilet cistern washers so that the cheepo blue plastic draper easy clutch alignment tool would work on the puller clutch. I actually used a 2.5 V6 clutch rather than the GTA because I had a nearly new one in the garage but it has been fine so far ( my wife usually drives the GT and doesn't overly test it's capabilities )

I'm a little confused about this idea -mentioned in some posts- that the clutch/flywheel can affect the torque. Torque ( turning force ) is a product of the engine not the clutch or gearbox. any gearbox will sap some power from the transmission as will the diff in the forms of heat and noise but the torque characteristics of the engine will be transmitted to the wheels unaltered unless the clutch slips.

I would say the somewhat smaller springs in the clutch driven plates of the 3.2 and 2.5 v6 will not absorb quite as much of the low rev engine pulsing as the larger ones in the DMF and this does result in a bit more judder when pulling away at near tick-over as I've said before on various other threads on this subject.
But if you pull away a couple of hundred revs higher this will disappear, at all other revs and gears there is no noticeable difference in the gear change or driving feel ( IMO )
There is a slight loss of weight in the conversion.( the F/W is lighter, the clutch is heavier but not by quite as much ) and this might allow the revs to build and die a little quicker to a sensitive and spirited driver but again not enough for me to notice on the occasions I drive the car and given that it's now hard to remember how it drove before.

The clutch is lighter than before; but I changed the clutch arm bearings and slave cylinder at the same time as the flywheel and clutch so once again there's no control experiment to establish whether any one in particular of these changes or all of them may have caused that.
It's welcome though; my left thigh and calf are now almost back to being the same size as the right ones.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Thank you very much for your response. Shorter screws for the SMF may be from the original 20VT? I have 190 HP and 380 Nm (2500 rpm), i hope that this conversion would be ok. Thank's again :)

OK, I did it!!! This conversion is great. Clutch works very gently, not slipping. There is one minus, gearbox is more noisy on neutral gear but I love my new clutch :)

I changed the clutch arm bearings , clutch pump and gerbox oil too.

:biglaugh:
 
#26 ·
I'm worried may have to change my tune slightly on this one; though everything I said about the driving characteristics of the SMF conversion remains true, I have had a release bearing fall apart, or rather the ears fall of it recently after two and a bit years and about 20.000 miles since the conversion. I fitted a replacement GTA clutch kit from Valeo and the release bearing disengaged from the clutch spring ring, -something I've never heard of before-, after 3 weeks. I thought my garage must not have seated it properly when fitting the clutch so they got a tongue lashing and I fitted a replacement release bearing myself only for it to happen again after a further 200 miles, this weekend I'm putting in another GTA clutch in case the ring on the end of the clutch fingers is the culprit, but this isn't the time of year, and I'm not at the time of life, to be spending every weekend on my back on a wet drive pulling and pushing gearboxes. I'm worried that maybe the clutch flywheel combinations SMF/sprung clutch and DMF/unsprung clutch are different depths and I'm putting undue strain on the release bearing by trying to pull it further than it is able to go when operating the clutch, or letting it return the clutch arm further than it is designed to go when I release it. I have all the old parts in the garage so when I get this one out I'm going to take the flywheel off again and measure the depths of the two set-ups to be sure.
I know Autolusso say it's been a very reliable conversion for them and I have a deal of respect for their opinion and professionalism but if it isn't a faulty clutch I don't know what else it might be.
 
#27 ·
Update

I spoke to Autolusso about this today and they said that they have had a few of these not just on the Solid flywheel conversions but on genuine GTAs as well. So for the time being I'm accepting that explanation: the worrying this is now that I'm putting in a new clutch is it going to happen again?
 
#28 ·
To be clear yes we have been having an issue with the release bearings popping out but it is not just on the solid flywheel conversion it is with any Valeo clutch fitted using the pull type release bearing. It is rare though, probably less than 2% of the clutches fitted are doing it. Valeo are aware of it and are investigating the issue, from memory we have had about 6 do it and have replace all the clutches under warranty, no questions. It is an issue but there is no alternative and not really something to worry about as I said it is rare.

The OEM clutch for all these cars is the Valeo made one and the release bearing is the same for all the kits

Ned
 
#29 ·
I had the Autolusso Single mass fly wheel / GTA clutch kit supplied and fitted by Ned, to my Alfa GT Q2, the week before last. The work was part of a package of maintenance and upgrades which ended up costing just a little less than £4.400.

The clutch failed two days after collecting the car, when the clutch pedal collapsed into the bulkhead while setting off from traffic lights near Manchester, leaving the car undrivable and its driver stranded.

I am hoping that the enviable and fabled reputation for fine customer service that Autolusso enjoys, will extend to putting right the issues surrouding the clutch and also meeting the additional costs suffered as a direct result. The car is due to be returned to them this week ( if it makes the journey ), I will post again as things develop.
 
#30 ·
Just for Balance..

I have the same set up and have done around 4k since it was fitted with no issues whatsoever..I doubt it's an installation issue,more like a faulty clutch release bearing which apparently valeo are looking into as it's happened on a few.

Also my car is Pushing out around 250 ponies and 600nm so the clutch and fly are well "tested"

although at only 4k in it's still "early doors" It all feels very solid on my car.

I am sure Ned will see you right.

FYI

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-147-156-andamp-gt/1024521-smf-con-release-bearings.html#post15377697
 
#31 ·
I'm sure you're right Joey and I make no critisism of Autolusso,- for whom I have a great deal of respect,- at all. My rogue clutch wasn't bought or fitted by them. One word though for you, mine felt solid as a rock and functioned perfectly for 200miles and apart from a very very faint whirrring the night before it popped out you'd never have believed anything was amiss.
 
#32 ·
Thanks for the warning sir..!

Its a worry that thier are some dodgy ones out there for sure.

I would need to look at the reciept but I think I have done about 5k now and other than a bit more noise at idle its all good. I'm sure if it failed in a way that was out of the ordinary or prematurely Ned would see me ok. I have had lots of dealings with both Luton and Bournemouth branches and always found them fair.


I suppose the thing to remember is that modding cars always comes with an element of risk..sometimes what seems like a good and sensible idea turns out to have unexpected complications,other times it works well.

At the end of the day Alfa didn't fit an SMF to our cars...so if things go awry I take the view that in engineering terms I have gone "of piste" and have to accept the potential consequences of that to a larger degree than if I kept it all as was intended.

Or just keep everything "stock" which for me is not an option,to slow in stock form the GT in all but the 3.2.

Keep us up to date with what happens,be good to find out whether its a dodgy valeo unit or some other as of yet undiscovered issue.

What I have decided to do is keep my low mileage DMF and stage one clutch (I was going to sell) so at least I have another option as well as a straight replacement if things go "**** up"

Good luck with it I hope you sort a replacement at minimum of cost and hassle. Does sound like this is a faulty unit and as such should be replaced by the vendor at thier inconvenience..
 
#33 ·
Well I replaced it last Thursday and Friday. it was cold but luckily didn't rain. the garage that fitted it are more than happy to take my issue to Eurocarparts ( the clutch supplier ) or Valeo, but as it was a modification are not totally confident of a result and so aren't prepared to put another in for nothing until they've recovered my cash. I couldn't wait that long so did it myself. The next clutch was from Mr Auto and branded Borg and Beck though of course when I opened it it was stamped Valeo as they all are. no matter who you buy it from and what brand it is ( reputable brand anyway ) it will be a Valeo. Don't know about Transmech or National or the cheap brands I suspect they might be re-manufactured Valeos ( but that's just my personal guess mr solicitor ) it's now done 45 miles and so far Joey it's as solid as a rock but it's early doors at the moment. From what I gather from Ned the chances of getting two duds in a row would exceed even my capacity for bad luck. Fingers crossed.
 
#34 ·
fingers crossed for you mate..:thumbu p:

another 2k on mine since we spoke last and after a little bleed today becasue of a little travel at the top of the pedal all is still good, nought to do with the clutch, just a bit of air in the system that found its way round after the recent master cylinder replacement..


keep us posted, but can't imagine you'll have any other issues.
 
#35 ·
Hi guys, just curious and hoping someone can offer some advice. I am about to purchase a GT, it's a gorgeous car, I'm buying knowing full well that the clutch is just starting to slip. Would I be right in thinking that although it's done 130k if there is no juddering the the DMF should actually be ok? Is it worth just doing the SMF conversion straight away? Thanks
George
 
#36 ·
Noisy operation is usually the clue. A faint fluttering sound from the n/s wheelarch under load at low-revs is normal. Bricks in a cement mixer is not. There's no need to replace the DMF unless it is failing IMO. Unless you have £350 spare assessment is best left until the clutch is removed and the DMF can be inspected for free movement/signs of failing.

If you are leaving the car standard there's no real reason to go SMF unless you are brutal on clutches. Personally I rather like DMF smoothness, but I drive in traffic a lot and try to be kind to it. If you are re-mapping or might re-map or and/or like to play Santa Pod, SMF GTA clutch will survive longer.
 
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