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Suspension recommendation

12K views 95 replies 16 participants last post by  jomor 
#1 ·
OK, the big moment has come :D

I m going for a new suspension for my bella. I just had the steering rack replaced on warranty and the front noise is gone :cool: Now the rear noise is from the shocks and its getting worse day by day, so i was thinking to fit a set of H&R springs ( as they are softer (!!) than the stock ones at the first mm of compression ) and i need to find a set of shocks that will be a soft match for them.

Until now i only tested a 147 with HR+stock shocks ( quite comfort combo, but gives a slight body roll on some occasions, and they stock shocks dont last long). I also tested a 147 with HR springs and Bilstein B8 (yellow sprint) shocks. Great performance, I cant say it was harsh, but i cant say it was comfort either.

I would like a shock that will be between these two, a bit softer than the B8.

I was thinking about the red Konis but everybody says that they they need re-adjustment every once in a while and they have reliability problems lately as all Konis have.

B8 seems the only solution until now, any ideas ?
 
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#3 ·
Will the oem alignment be changed when you replace with H&R's? I heard of a guy that replaced his shocks in GTAR, an alfa store next to Praktiker or Kappa marine in Helleniko, with a fully adjustable kit from holland, together with its rear anti-roll bar and the handling is fanatastic even on 180+kms! Haven't experienced yet Bilstein B8's comfort but with this set you can adjust height (2 sets of springs on each shock) and bound-rebound (?) of your bella. Aaa and before forget you can refil them when their performance degrades after plenty of miles driven. The only disadvantage is price, he gave around 2,000e for shocks,springs,anti-roll bars...! Have a look and speak with the guy in the shop. Maybe he can make it softer for you if you are not require lowering! I have heard that Sacks sells a good set of shocks+springs for our bellas in good price. However I am not sure if Shacks produces as well 147's oem shocks..

Let as know the results of your decision! :D
 
#4 · (Edited)
Hi Chris, thanks a lot for the reply. I know the case. The car you re talking about is Droemmen's car and the brand of the suspension is [edit:] Intrax [edit] coilovers.
The suspension i must admit is very good, but as a customer I didnt like some things when i visited the specific shop:

1) The salesman (and owner) avoids mentioning the suspension's brand for some reason, and you have to ask twice to get the brand name.

2) I visited him to ask about the suspension noise I had. He said that my shocks needed replacement (probably he s right ) and before
asking me if I have won the lottery or not, he started talking about 2000 euro suspensions, antiroll bars etc ( while i only needed 4 shocks ).
He also mentioned that my original Alfa Romeo 17" Selespeed alloys have a wrong offset ( !!!!!!!! ) and need to be replaced with new better ones!!!
I can accept that they could be crap, that they could be heavy, that they could be easily kerbed, but I cant accept that the factory wheels have a
wrong offset... I only asked to fix a noise, and he suggested to repace half the car. When i told him that my wallet is not full, he suggested a credit card
payment, instead of replacing just the 4 shocks. I didnt like that.

3) I dont see any reason to spend that much money since I can get the same result with the HR+B8 combination. I had a ride with Droemmens
car, and I also had a ride with a turbo-ed 147 with HR+Bilstein B8 suspension. They re both great, and give the same feeling. So why spend
the double money.

4) Talking with two very experienced mechanics (who are just good friends and not selling anything to me), they both told me the same thing,
they told me that the rear antiroll bar of the 147 (as most cars) has the specific thickness for a specific reason.
Perhaps the body gets some inclination on corners, but on the other hand the specific setup is focused on handling neutrality.
Changing the thickness you mess up with the car's handling and you spoil the neutrality of its behaviour on cornering. The rear will
have less inclination on corners, and if it reacts while being on the limits, the reaction will be more sudden, which needs much more
experience to be controlled from the driver. You dont mess with these things on a car that is so well balanced. I like to do modifications
that I understand how they work, not just what I ve been adviced to. We drive on roads, not tracks, and we have to keep that in mind,
as the professionals should also have in mind too.

5) Adjustable shocks do loose their adjustment and need re-configuring every once in a while.

Bottom line is that I m looking for a set of not harsh shocks to match the HRs. But there arent many options out there are they..
 
#5 ·
Haha! The greek way of helping a customer.. Sorry Jomor for my behaviour, you are absolutely right my friend! No reason to change the whole suspension set up, especially when we are talking for an alfa with the 1.6cc engine and its few 120hp..And 'few' because the chassis can handle more and more!!! The car's anti-roll bars are quite fine from factory. Yes its true the car has a level of inclination in corners but when you get used to it with small moves on the steering wheel it handles perfectly and reach its limits very very smoothly!

I had a pass yesterday in "limanakia" with a 1.6 focus and instead of the increased inclination the car was feeling so confidence that the focus was viewing from the mirror my cuore sportivo heart threating him. The focus' handling was quite well however, but still trying to find a grip with its tyres screaming for no reason. Ok that was it. The driver was not aware of what he passed him on the corner! (petalo) To be honest I left the focus afterwards to pass me but only for a special reason! ...the driver was a WOMAN! Oh yes!!! And she was very very friendly as well! Anyway our topic now..

I think the rational decision would be to get the bilsteins and get rid of all the above costs. You are going to have the similar set up without re-configuring it every month and looking for a speciallist to do it. Ok you'll loose some comfort but you'll probably get used to it. I think bilsteins life expectancy is bigger than oem ones. So up to now this is a good value for money option.

An other option would be to contact Autodelta. Send them an e-mail and ask them what brands thay are supporting in their suspension kits. They are The Proffs for our bellas aren't they?

Let us know when your research will end. Think I am gonna need a new set for me as well if I don't stop driving like hell in those f...ing greek roads!
 
#6 ·
Chris there is no reason to apologize, you didnt say anything wrong anyway. Of course an adjustable set offers more
customisation options but the money is too much to pay for something that shouldnt break down from 10.000kms anyway..

I can live with the B8's stiffness but i m not sure if the rest (crap quality) suspension parts of this car can handle such stress..
 
#7 ·
Jomor,

I think it would be difficult to find a 'matched' set of dampers for H&R springs. Bilsteins and yellow Koni may be the commonly used ones, but not necessarily the best match.

A friend of mine (with 156) had H&R springs + stock dampers on, then he bought the B8. Later he removed them for the very reason you mentioned above (not harsh, but not comfortable). He's still driving his 156 with H&R + OEM dampers.

I don't know anyone (yet) who has H&R+Koni (yellow), so I can't say how they are. I suggest you search a bit more and find a complete suspension set like Sachs Performance kit or Eibach kit (Eibach springs + dampers, made by Sachs for Eibach). Kits from Autodelta or Novitec (quite low, though) should also be well-matched.

Ultimately the Rhoddy Harvey Bailey kit is my preferred choice, if a bit expensive. ;)
 
#8 ·
Thanks for the reply. But I d like to stick with the HRs since i ve tested them myself and I know that they re smooth and progressive.

What about the black Bilsteins? They re supposed to be softer than the B6 and B8, but will they work with lowering springs ?
 
#9 ·
jomor said:
What about the black Bilsteins? They re supposed to be softer than the B6 and B8, but will they work with lowering springs ?
Not sure. But if they're too long, you'll run risks of bottoming them out.

BTW, what size of wheels and tires are you running on your 147 again? If they're 16", just go with yellow Bilstein B6/8. They shouldn't be too hard for 16". ;)
 
#10 · (Edited)
Today I talked to the Bilstein's help desk. I asked them if I can use the B4 with the HRs. They talked about the possibility of bottoming them out, and they recommended either the B6 with the factory springs, or the B8 with the HRs. They seemed to avoid recommending the B4 (black) not even with the factory springs. Isnt this strange?


I also talked to my mechanic, he insists on the B8, he said that the B4 are real crap and wont last longer than 6 months. He also said that the B4 dont work well in most cars.

Another friend of mine, who is also a Fiat mechanic, he suggested the black B4 as awesome! I also talked to Amyndas, who had the B4 on his Punto GT and he found them awesome too. One friend liked them a lot at his Fiat Coupe (1.8 with factory springs). On the other hand, my sister's Punto has the B4 and they re quite harsh (also with factory springs). WTF ???

Anyone has experience with the Bilstein B4 on an Alfa ??

And what about that bottoming? Has anyone experienced it? Because the last time i checked, the only brand that offers shortened shocks, special for lowering, is Bilstein. And I dont think that everybody has Bilstein B8 at his car... In fact I think most have yellow Konis..
 
#11 ·
Hey Jomor, have you asked bilstein's help desk if they provide any lowering kit for your alfa? I think like eibach does, they provide a set of (blue) lower springs+(yellow) shocks. I know you liked H&R's behaviour but probably this would be the best matching from Bistein..and who knows...maybe they use H&R springs for this kit!
 
#12 ·
Goode_chris said:
Hey Jomor, have you asked bilstein's help desk if they provide any lowering kit for your alfa? I think like eibach does, they provide a set of (blue) lower springs+(yellow) shocks. I know you liked H&R's behaviour but probably this would be the best matching from Bistein..and who knows...maybe they use H&R springs for this kit!
They ARE. Bilstein is currently using H&R srpings for their coilovers.

check this, its quite interesting faq
http://www2.bilstein.de/en/produkte/faq.php3

I emailed Bilstein asking about B4 (black) and HR compatability. Well guess what, they forwarded my email to the Greek importer and i received an email in greeklish (thats greek with english character set) asking me to phone them to their 0800 free of charge help desk. So I did ( its a ..forward to a mobile phone :D ) and the guy suggested either the B6 with the Alfa romeo factory springs, or the B8 + HR springs. Not a word about suggesting the B4, not even with the factory springs, even though my initial query was about the B4.


I take back what i said about other brands, i read on Koni's website that the yellow konis are meant to be combined with lowering springs.

So lemme rephrase my question: Any experience with yellow Konis on HR springs ? Many ppl say they re quite firm even at their softer adjustment, is that true?
 
#18 ·
jomor said:
The fact that its an 1.5cm eibach spring, combined with that its only for 156, gives me the impression that its the same springs Alfa Romeo uses for the 156 sport pack. Which is eibach and exists only for the 156.
The Sportpack springs are 2.0cm lower than original. I doubt they're the same, Jomor.
 
#19 ·
I think that the only thing that can help an indecisive person like Jomor :D is someone with a 147 using Bilstein "all blacks" and lowering springs preferably H&R. He seems to have tried all other configurations with B6 and B8s. As already mentioned I have experience with all blacks on a Punto GT with OEM springs but a different car is quite a different story even on the same shocks and springs.
 
#20 ·
Conclusions up to now:

1) If lowering springs are gonna be used, they re better be H&R. They re recommended by most professionals and all the HR owners i ve talked to, they re quite happy.

2) The shocks that will be used with lowering springs, must have a shortened stroke than the original factory shocks. In other words shocks special for lowering, like the Bilstein B8 or the yellow Konis. If standard lenght shocks are used, there is a possibility of bottoming out, and also a danger exists of the spring slipping out of the holder causing the car to suddenly becomes uncontrollable (according to Bilstein http://www2.bilstein.de/en/produkte/faq.php3 ). I havent heard anything like that happening in real though. And i remember putting the rear HR sping next to the oem one, and they had the same uncompressed height! So I guess this is a general precaution.

3) Till now, i ve tested in real the following two combinations on a 147:

a) HR + oem socks: Great comfort ride (the 147 TI's comfort improved very much) nice performance but not perfect, it gives a small bodyroll on some occasions.

b) HR + Bilstein B8 (yellow sprint). Fantastic performance, medium comfort, but not harsh. You ll keep your dental fillings in place. The suspension works up and down as it is supposed to but in a controlled way, you do have the feeling of strong damping at all occasions.

4) All the professionals I ve talked to ( including Bilsteins' Help Desk), they all recommended the following combinations: a) oem springs with yellow Bilstein B6 (sport). b) H&R springs with yellow Bistein B8 (sprint). NOBODY liked the idea of the Bilstein B4 ( all black ) combined with the H&R or any lowering spring. "You do it at your own risk" they said. Not recommened.


I personally would like something in between, H&R springs combined with a set of shocks that will have a stiffness between the Alfa Romeo shocks and the yellow Bilstein B8, but whoever I ask, the answer is the same: "There isnt any". When I ask about yellow Koni, they say that at their softer adjustment, they have the same stiffness as the Bilstein B8.

Go figure..
 
#21 ·
Jomor,

Have you considered the Bilsteins from RHB kit? I don't know where they fit among the B6 and B8, but it's worth looking into. ;)
 
#22 · (Edited)
Wisrute B. said:
Jomor,

Have you considered the Bilsteins from RHB kit? I don't know where they fit among the B6 and B8, but it's worth looking into. ;)
B6 and B8 have the same stiffness according to Bilstein, they re 20% stiffer than the oem shock, and 15% stiffer than the B4 shock. I believe most ppl think B8 are stiffer than B6 because B8 are always used with lowering springs ( which are harder) while B6 are often used with oem springs giving a more comfort ride.

I asked about repairing the old ones and i m waiting to be informed about the price. There is someone who replaces the guts of fiat-alfa-lancia shocks and rebuilds them with new parts, and you can pre-order a required stiffness. My mechanic has given his shocks to this guy for repair and he has them for two years with no problems, and he s happy till now. He said that I can order a stiffness between the oem and the bilsteins. If the money is not much, i might try it. And there is always the black bilsteins option. 5% stiffer than the oem, is all the HRs need imho. And since many use the oem shocks with the HRs with no problem, i cant see why there will be a problem with the blacks. Or will there ? We ll see..
 
#23 ·
So Yanni lemme revise the options:
Bilsteins (B4 or B6 or B8) and maybe some coilovers if not very expensive.
H&R springs or maybe OEM springs or maybe some custom made.
KONIs the yellow or the red or both!
Or custom remade shocks with extra stiffnes or the OEM shocks.
And/or maybe some set combinations from GTAR in Athens or even :rolleyes: :confused: ...... sorry I forgot the rest :D :D

:lol: :lol:
 
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