JTD/JTDM MCSF & other problems FIX - Page 5 - Alfa Romeo Forum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcars79 View Post
Hi, there is no vacuum coming from the pipe. Is the vacuum reservoir the black box on the back of engine? if it is how do you get it off and where does it get its main feed from? if i could tap into this feed i could connect that to the actuator to test it?

Thanks ....
If everything works, when you start the car, vacuum pulls actuator on turbo. On higher revs ECU regulates it by Pierburg valve.

http://i28.tinypic.com/2zqyc7q.jpg

This is scheme of whole VGT regulation system, check in this order:
- Check that you can press actuator on turbi by finger, and that it springs back (4 on picture)
- Check all vacuum hoses for cracks (6 on picture, yelow coloured)
- Check if Pireburg valve works (it should be open when engine is idling, vacuum suction on side of the turbo)
- Check that you are getting vacuum from vacum reservoir (vacuum sucton az Pierburg valve on side od the vacuum reservoir)

You can't just connect vacum directly to the turbo because you will have overboost on high
revs.
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Just a quick note thank you every one for your help, I have decided to scrap the car now.

Carl ....

P.s. If I every buy another Alfa I will be back as your forum is great All the best ...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcars79 View Post
Just a quick note thank you every one for your help, I have decided to scrap the car now.

Carl ....

P.s. If I every buy another Alfa I will be back as your forum is great All the best ...
ring dan at autolusso you might get a good price for it off him

http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/members/autolusso.html
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(Post Link) post #104 of 155 Old 20-10-11 Thread Starter
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Just a quick note thank you every one for your help, I have decided to scrap the car now.

Carl ....

P.s. If I every buy another Alfa I will be back as your forum is great All the best ...
Wow, srcap the car just because of such small issue, that would be very strange thing to do where I come from
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Wow, srcap the car just because of such small issue, that would be very strange thing to do where I come from
+1
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Well it was not just that here is the list of things that it needed >>>>

Cambelt (2k over limit)

2x tyres

Waste gate solenoid (modis diag proved not working, plus it leaked air hence no boost)

Air box (was previously busted from front ender before got car)

some suspension related item n/s front (bad knocking noise but never diagnosed)

Inlet manifold to be removed and flushed as badly gummed up

the little sensor on the vacuum reservoir (nipple had been previously been broken off although i had stuck it with araldite it does need to be replaced)

front lower indicator guts missing

Maf (some one has previously broken the mesh inside)

Glow plug thermal plate

And to top it all off the car was a dog any way (Soooooo glad i was not the one who bought it in the first place!!!) so watch out any one who might see a grey 147 1.9 8v going very cheap!!!! i am told it is heading for the breakers but you never know what they will do with it.
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Boost pressure high

Quote:
Originally Posted by davealfa11 View Post
i think you may have holes or splits in your small bore pipe work to turbo actuator ,that pipe that goes to boost solenoid control valve

Y'see I just don't understand that. If you had a hole in your vacuum tubing (i.e. less vacuum than you should have, or even no vacuum) you should get LESS boost than expected, as the 'rest' position of the turbo vanes is the safe 'high revs' position, and the car should be very sluggish below 2000rpm...

...surely?
 
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Well Happy Front Fog Lights

Hi there,

I replaced my GT's battery a few weeks ago, unfortunately, after using jumper cables to start it... Now my front fog lights wont light up (the rear ones are fine), I turn on the button but the lights just wont light up, I checked: the bulbs are fine, the fuses are OK and my dashboard doesn't show any error... I searched the forum for some thread about this but found nothing about this, did this ever happened to anyone else?

Thanks in advance for your help!
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I have just changed all 3 vacuum hoses to the actuator and cleaned my EGR, even though the solenoid pin was moving completely freely, as was the spring in the housing.

My issue is SOMETIMES i get a lack of power below 2000rpm, other times there is no problem at all. Having done the work above, there is no difference. Car has only 35000 miles on it. All other hoses look ok, no MCSF but the glow plug light flashes for a bit after start up. Also, thermostat seems stuck as temp tises to 70 and sits there, could this have an effect? IF so, why is it so intermittent?

Any ideas?
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Buska -

I think your flashing glowplug light is simply a duff glowplug. The engine should run normally despite this (starting in the cold might take a few more engine turns). Pull the leads (carefully!) off the top of each glowplug and check the resistance between the centre pin and the engine block. Should be 1 ohm or so. It's duff if it's open circuit.

Temp sitting at 70 is one of 3 things: 1) Duff temp gauge 2) Duff thermostat 3) Careful driving - it takes AGES for my JTDM 20V to get to 90, and only if I spank it for a bit or am sat in traffic. Pootling has it at about 80 (and that's since I fitted a new thermostat).

Not sure about your rough running - might be the MAF sensor - check on here for posts about it, but best bet is to disconnect it and see if the car runs better

Best of luck
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20V JTD M-JET MCSF (P0238) Overboost

Hi all,


I had neglected fixing my overboosting problem as it's not been so prominent lately. However it still happens at around 3000 rpm on an intermittent basis. I say intermittent, but I can almost always provoke it on the motorway by sticking it in 5th and flooring it past 2500 rpm and holding on to the gear till 3500 or so. Then on backing off... beep beep beep MCSF!

I've done:

1. Remove solenoid pipe to turbo: car is sluggish till high revs (ie the vanes HAVE returned to the 'safe' high revs position and are NOT stuck)

2. Replaced the solenoid actuator unit, just in case, with a proper genuine Pierburg unit

3. Cleaned the MAP sensor


All made no difference

I suppose there might be some "sticking" so the turbo vanes 'lag' the position required, but the problem happens on SLOW throttle changes as evidenced by my tracings - if the turbo vanes were sticking (they are not fixed, see 1 above) there would be 'jumps' in the trace and closures in the desired/actual boost graph as the vanes suddenly move, surely?

May be a faulty MAP sensor reading high



I was going to take a gamble and splash the £60-odd on a new MAP. What do folks think on here? Have a look at my FiatECUScan tracing. Does anyone with a 20V have a tracing so I can compare?

Cheers
Fletch
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File Type: jpg Overboost.jpg (72.9 KB, 114 views)
 
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The fault comes from the MAP sensor for sure, try replacing with the used one somewhere. Desired and actual should be close. Today I was doing some test due to black smoke, check out map readings.
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/9260/uphill.png
EDIT: This view is better Uphill MAP1

Last edited by turbozob; 02-04-12 at 07:56.
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Many thanks for that - I'll give it a go, and report back with a new graph!

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P0238 Overboost Alfa 156 JTD 20V 2.4

Hi All,

Replaced the MAP sensor with a genuine Bosch replacement part (same part number). Ran Fiat ECUScan again, and graph as below. Doesn't look much better. The VGT solenoid is new.

I might pull the turbo vane vac pipe off and run the test again, but driving the car with the turbo vac pipe off is as it should be (ie very sluggish at low revs - turbo vanes in the "high revs"/safe/rest position).

Any ideas anyone? The car runs well apart form MCSF sometimes after 3k rpm on wide throttle openings.

PS My graphs are done with the car stationary, in neutral.

Fletch
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I was chasing an overboost issue on my 10v for ages. Did all the usual tests, cleaned map, changed hoses etc etc but to no avail. I did a lot of research on the problem and everything indicated my vanes were not stuck. But being a tight git decided to try the free stuff first. Me and a mate spent half a day removing, cleaning then putting the turbo back. That was 2 weeks ago and not one occurance of over boost since. It happily revs to the redline where as before the little light pinged on around 3.5k revs consistantly. All you need is a bit of time, some wet and dry and some carb cleaner.

wearing daps since 1983
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Looks like I'll be getting the big spanners out, then the dremmel...

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This was very helpful...

VNT15-Turbo

As was this...

Alfa Romeo forum: JTD Turbo removal guide
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I had a similar problem with our Stilo JTD, it turned out to be the vanes sticking but the graphes in FES showed nothing strange, smooth up and down ..

Watch for small jerky movements of the actuator rod, its a sure sign of sticking vanes and what caused our car to overboost.

Here's a couple of links to vids of the small jerky movements of my actuator, very small but enough to cause the EML to come on.

Using FES to activate it via the boost valve, you can see it sticking as it returns.
Activated via FES

You can see it stick a few seconds after starting the engine.
At engine start up
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Thanks for your replies guys - I'll have a go at getting the turbo off and take some pikkies of what it looks like inside.

As you suggest, it may be gummed up, as I had been using the car for 6 months of *very* gentle motorway driving (55-60mph!! - it was a cash thing!) and later found the thermostat was dodgy too , so the engine had been running cold - a sure fire way to gum things up (I have since replaced a siezed EGR!!)

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Oh, wear gloves because the carbon dEposits are a right bugger to get out from under your nails! I had a film of 1mm over everything. As with anything like this you will get out what you put in so scrub it until it looks new because once you realise the effort needed to get the thing out you won't want to be doing it again in a hurry!!
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ahh now this thread could be my heaven after months of searching.
My GT diesel gives a fumey smell when heater is on and stationary. Cant see fuel leak and even Sunnyside said "no leak".
Only get a puff off black smoke when cold or if accelerating hard after a week of slow moving commute.
Now.. could it be a split intercooler hose or loose hose that can be tightened?

Cheers!
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New to this Alfa owner thing but loving it so far. I have a 20v JTD that has a curious habit of popping the P0238 as do many of you on here, however slightly different to most other peoples in that if you let the car get to full operating temp (about 10 miles ) you can red line it in every gear, (well 2,3,4 - ran out of road in 5,6 but got well up) however if you stray beyond 3000rpm at anything less than full operating temp your gaurenteed to get MCSF - P0238. (is it rev's or throttle openings I wonder?)
Things I have investigated so far based on this excellent thread and others:
1. Checked VNT hoses, all good, held the input and output hoses together on VNT and enough VAC to move actuator
2. Actuator moves - do need to check smoothness of this
3. Cleaned MAP - Proper caked up
4. Changed Thermostat - was sticking all over the place

I hate spending money for fun or on "It might be this......" whims, I like to put some science behind it, and I need to do lower wishbones soonest.

My current thinking is vane clean, however defeets my logic, things grow when warm not shrink! surely it would stick more the hotter it got?

Anyone any suggestions as to possible cures? It's livable with but frustrating.
Cheers!
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Witty hard to say, but you will need to connect to ECU and check the MAP sensor readings. You will have to risk some money if you want to repair it by yourself one way or another.

Fletch did you manage to found out the problem?
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Cry Like A Baby P0238 Finally fixed!

Hey guys, just solved my overboost problem. Just before finally giving in and removing my turbo for cleaning, I thought I'd have one last wheedle. Took off the air filter link pipe (that big black thing in the way) and disconnected the MAF. You get the usual MAF sensor and air quantity errors.

Then connected up FES and set it graphing desired boost against actual boost as per my previous posts, on my windows tablet, displaying in the car windscreen so I could see it as I played. With the engine running, I could see actual boost always exceeded desired boost, with the margin getting larger as the revs rise, until at 500mBar difference... beep beep beep! MCSF. I know my MAP and VNT solenoid are good (theyre new!) and the MAF cant be stuffing things up as its disconnected. Pulling off the VNT vac pipe gave good movement of the VNT mechanism. I jammed a piece of wood under the throttle pedal to give around 2200rpm and had a prod at the VNT mech with a long screwdriver - NOTE: IF YOU DROP ANYTHING DOWN THE INTAKE PIPE YOU'LL BUGGER YOUR ENGINE. ALSO NOTE THE ELECTRIC FAN CAN START ANY TIME - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED! I could make desired boost equal actual boost by moving the mech back a couple of mm towards 'rest' position, but the funny thing was, on letting go, the VNT mech sprang back to its original position, giving a bit too much boost, as before! The mech was NOT sticking - the ECU was asking for that position from the vacuum mechanism! It freely sprang back there no matter which way I nudged it! NOTE2: THE TURBO IS BLOODY LOUD WITH THE INDUCTION SYSTEM OPEN TO AIR!

So I shut off the engine, and undid the 10mm lock nut on the VNT rod, lots of WD40 (when turbo cooled a bit) and lengthened the rod by adjusting the knurled finger nut (not much room to get your fingers in!). Restart engine (no need to do up the locking nut yet) check back with FES. When you get desired boost=actual boost at around 3000 rpm or so, shut off and do up the lock nut. Blob of thread lock, and you're done! Reconnect MAF and put back the induction link pipe. Make sure the jubilee clips are done up on it.

My tracing shows slight underboost, but the car drives really well, and I guess I owe the engine a break after all the overboosting. Thinking about it, my car did have a huge chavvy exhaust and 'carbon look' wipers, so maybe some pillock had adjusted the boost before i bought it? When I got thr car, I had been driving it very economically, so may not have encountered the problem....

Anyway, I'm happy now - and I thought I'd share this solution with you. You do need the live graphing on FES to adjust though (with revs at 2200 or so).

Fletch
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