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Re: Uprated Clutch on JTD - Suggestions / Experiences

Higher BHP is not the problem for the clutch. Max torque is the problem... But those things are related
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Re: Uprated Clutch on JTD - Suggestions / Experiences

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Originally Posted by ALFA TUNER View Post
get your tunner to make you a file with less torque then!!!!!!!!!
I can decrease the torque

But i don't want to make the clutch prematurely fail

So i'll either wait for the clutch to fail of it's own accord .. Or wait until i can afford an uprated clutch
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Re: Uprated Clutch on JTD - Suggestions / Experiences

Lot of topics about remapping diesels, but has anyone really upgrated the clutch?

There is different kind of gearboxes in 156 diesels. I think the biggest problem is the original doublemass flywheel which dosnt hold up with hightorques. Does they all use the same dmf or is there some differents?

Has anyone installed solid flywheel?
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Re: Uprated Clutch on JTD - Suggestions / Experiences

The problem with replacing the DMF with a solid version is that it's a DMF for a reason and the damping of vibration the DMF does will go elsewhere and make other things wear out quicker i.e the gearbox. I had a long chat with the guy at CG clutches who does a solid flywheel for Alfa JTD's (or knows where to get them from) and he said it isn't a good option, even though they can get hold of them.

The 20v JTD has got a GM F40 gearbox which should be rated to 400lb/ft of torque even though it has been mentioned on here before that it's 400Nm(which is only a little more than the standard torque on the 20v). If you get a remap on a 20v it'll be around 350lb/ft of torque which the gearbox and clutch should cope with, but things will wear out faster and your driveshafts will also not last very long as they seem to struggle with standard torque. When I asked about uprating the clutch previously, the only option for a 20v is a paddle clutch which I actually bought, but unfortunately it didn't fit the DMF I had bought, so CG took it back and gave me a full refund.

Cheers,

Mark

Last edited by Mark_JTD; 20-04-09 at 20:44.
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Re: Uprated Clutch on JTD - Suggestions / Experiences

That was nice of them

I thought they were great when I got my uprated clutch for my old 10v.
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Re: Uprated Clutch on JTD - Suggestions / Experiences

Has anyone tried the Kevlartec clutch kits from CG Motorsport? I rang them up yesterday and straight away they offered a paddle clutch which sounds like it's an on/off feel to it. I told them I have to drive it every day and sometimes crawl along in traffic so they said they're getting the Kevlartec units in next week.

The advertising bumph on the phone said these kevlar things have been tested to crazy speeds, a lot stronger than standard organic compounds, same spring force and same pedal force...

Has anyone tried a Kevlartec clutch? Or a paddle clutch? Are they as rough as they sound?



Edit - just fond in another clutch thread:
Quote:
Mine has a CG motorsport paddle clutch fitted and it is horrible around town. Drive it hard and its fine but gently its very unpleasant. It's coming out and I will look at the spec of the 170 to see if it's better than standard.
So that answers my paddle clutch worries ... anyone got any experience of a kevlartec clutch?
 
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Re: Uprated Clutch on JTD - Suggestions / Experiences

I had a CG Motorsport uprated clutch but no idea if it was a Kevlartec one or not
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Re: Uprated Clutch on JTD - Suggestions / Experiences

A paddle clutch typically is very on or off and not easy to use around town in slow 1st gear stop start traffic.

As already stated by a few others, its the torque that kills the clutch, a standard clutch (new in good order) should deal with 290-300lb/ft torque at the WHEELS (not some calc to the fly) and as stated prior, get the torque limited to a suitable level.

My car is modded with a massive fmic, intake right through, bigger turbo etc, and if I wanted I could show show crazy torque figures, but the car would drive like a pig as it wouldn't hold traction in 1st or 2nd, struggle in 3rd and want to rip the clutch and box out in 4th and 5th, and thats why I decided to have the torque limited to something more driveable.
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Interesting old thread this.

Specially as i am considering having my clover 170 mapped soon. Did we ever ascertain if the 147/Gt 170 have a stronger clutch to deal with a tad more power?

Is there a clutch option since this thread, that has oem feel, yet takes more torque than oem.
Or would sympathetic mapping be the answer with a flatter torque curve?

And has anyone had experience with mapping a 170 jtdm using the sport button to produce 2 separate maps, one more aggressive than the other?

Cheers
Damien.
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Ran a CG motorsport on my remapped 1.9 JTD. Will be swapping the GTA over to one next time it's due
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Quote:
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Ran a CG motorsport on my remapped 1.9 JTD. Will be swapping the GTA over to one next time it's due
Thanks Joss.. What was the action like on the CG?

Damien.
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+1 on the CG, got one on my 147 Jtd remapped and a few other mods.

The clutch operates almost as standard, no jerkiness, good at low speed but can feel it bite better when booting it and the price is good as well.
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I also had a CG Stage 1 clutch on my 2.4 JTD 10v (same fitment as 1.9 16v), the action was pretty much exactly as factory. I'm not sure exactly how uprated it is as I wore it out in 50k miles but it was good value for money.
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Thanks for the confirmation chaps.. Hoping my 32k 170 clutch will be ok for a while, will try and exercise a degree of mechanical sympathy when she is mapped. My old Gt jtd did well with her 60k and just under 200bhp angel tuning map..not a hint of clutch slip. Looking forward to having that kind of torque again. Even my 170 was disappointing after that map.

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I had the CG kevlar job but didn't change the dmf and regretted it as it was juddery. Could have just been unfortunate but I'd definitely change the dmf too.

B@
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diddums100 View Post
I had the CG kevlar job but didn't change the dmf and regretted it as it was juddery. Could have just been unfortunate but I'd definitely change the dmf too.

B@
Do you mean the one with a conventional friction surface on one side and a paddle-type surface on the other? "Dual Friction"
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Conventional, not the dual one

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Touch wood, my Alfatune remapped 20v is still on the original clutch at 130k+ but I don't leave lines of black rubber every day.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALFADOIT View Post
Thanks Joss.. What was the action like on the CG?

Damien.
Exactly the same as normal. It was an organic stage one. So same cover and plate. Just a different friction material which could take more abuse.
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Clutch problems with my 1,9 JTD. Done a bit over 100k now and the last 10k with a remap at around 180 hp. Since the clutch is a known weak spot, I thought I'd upgrade it a bit once I'm at it.

I had a chat with CG asking about Stage 1 or 2 sets and mentioned them that I tow a trailer every now and then. Their response was that "There is nothing that offers suitable towing engagement and that torque increase (~+20%)".

They did recommend the dual friction kit with a notice that it might struggle and lifespan might be short. That is also getting a bit pricey..

Somehow that doesn't make me trust their products a lot. Even the stock clutch can handle the +20% somehow. So if that is upgraded by 40%, how can that still "struggle". I'd think that the DMF would give in way before the clutch at those torque levels.

I certainly don't want to go to a paddle clutch, since the car is a daily driver after all.

Any information on the QV clutch, is that a bit stronger?

Sachs does do a +15% clutch, and I think that I trust its a good one, but the price.. I think I'd still rather go for this one rather than the CG dual friction.

Any other good choices?

I don't think that I'd need a lot stronger clutch, since even the stock one should be able to cope somehow. I'd still want an extra 10% or so to be a bit safer.
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I'm in the process on replacing my clutch as mine slipping slightly in 4th 5th and 6th not spoken to cg but I was just going to go for the stage 3 with solid flywheel all n all fitted is just under 1k although budget is tight really want to get right the 1st time plus I'm looking at big power too so it's stage 3 for me and I've heard good feedback with stage 3 clutch from other alfa drivers.. I did start a thread in the tuning section.. The stage 3 clutch was designed to go with the cg smf as it's designed to have the same dampening feel as dmf

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I don't want to go to a solid flywheel since the remap power is enough. Also since the gearbox is a bit of a weak spot I don't want to put any extra stress on it. I know some people who have fitted SMF's and gone back to DMF because of pretty harsh behaviour at lower revs. I understand it in racing where you don't have to spin the engine under 2500, but in the street I haven't heard much good about those.

I did contact Sachs as well and they said that their clutch kit will hold the extra power and that it would be a good choice. They also said that it is the hardest streetable version that they can offer.

I think it might be a good solution to rather limit the torque down low than to use a really heavy clutch.

The 1,9 probably isn't a very good starting point for tuning. I know of pretty good results with the mighty 5 pot lump. A lot less driveline problems.
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I had dual friction clutch(CG Motorsports one) fitted in December 2014 and I do not like it at all. It never slips which is good, but it judders like a hell. It requires 2000rpm on 1st gear to avoid judder.
Reversing without judder is not possible. It is quite embarrassing specially when you parking-you look like just passed your licence.
Even downshifting from 3rd to 2nd judders. I think it will be impossible to drive in snow.
I may have clutch checked, maybe they did not fit it correctly.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil6 View Post
I had dual friction clutch(CG Motorsports one) fitted in December 2014 and I do not like it at all. It never slips which is good, but it judders like a hell. It requires 2000rpm on 1st gear to avoid judder.
Reversing without judder is not possible. It is quite embarrassing specially when you parking-you look like just passed your licence.
Even downshifting from 3rd to 2nd judders. I think it will be impossible to drive in snow.
I may have clutch checked, maybe they did not fit it correctly.
I drove one and found similar, I think it was fitted in conjunction with an original DMF which is something that can also cause judder. Did you use a new DMF or re-use your old one?
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That is kind of what I'd expect, since its a semi-paddle afterall. One could also imagine that the judder will kill the DMF pretty fast.

I'm from Finland, so the car is driven on ice and snow for about half the year. Sometimes a smooth clutch makes the difference whether you make it to your destination or not.

Most likely I could live with a clutch like that, but my wife also drives the car. She'd kill me if I fit a paddle clutch, since its kind of her car And she'd kill the clutch and/or DMF anyway.

Has onyone done any measurements if some pressure plate (CG/Sachs?) is a bit stiffer than OE?

In some other cases I've ran into some "sport" pressure plates that were actually poorer than the good quality original.

Maybe just the original pressure plate shimmed for max grip with a bit better disc would be a good choice. I'd only have to figure out which is a good disc

Anyway I'll have to be carefull with the clutch especially when towing and use a bit more revs. Afterall the low end torque and pulses are the thigns that kill the clutch, not hp.
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