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(Post Link) post #26 of 64 Old 03-10-16 Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris155 View Post
A) you could always try not driving like a complete t**t...

B) oil flow through the oil cooler is controlled by a thermostat in the oil filter mount on the back of the engine. This may be stuck shut. I'd run the engine up to temperature (3-5 bars on the display) and check the temperature of the oil cooler.
Lol, option a):

max. speed is 236km/h's give or take before redline, I am driving 160-180 (76%?), it should not overheat the oil, that is all. I am enjoying the GT to the max because tomorrow we might all be dead, you might step outside now and be driven over by some idiot driving his GT, enjoy life mate, there is no point in owning a GT and drive 120 like a geriatric.

Option b):

Thanks, I shall lightly tap it with my rubber hammer but I know already there will be no space to do that, maybe some weekend when I am not enjoying her ( her & her) I shall remove the cooler and give it a work-over but driving her slow I shall never do to her, it is like marrying a supermodel and never ****ing her hard and fast from behind

Option c):

Get a bigger aftermarket oil cooling system , has anyone done that or has experience with that?

Last edited by Aramis; 03-10-16 at 14:31.
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Instead of writing all the redundant bull****, go and check the temperature of the oil cooler first!, just as Chris155 suggested. From there on you decide what to do next (replace the oil thermostat, oil cooler or both). Aftermarket oil cooler you can get from Autolusso - Autolusso - Oil Coolers
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Originally Posted by lizard View Post
Instead of writing all the redundant bull****, go and check the temperature of the oil cooler first!, just as Chris155 suggested. From there on you decide what to do next (replace the oil thermostat, oil cooler or both). Aftermarket oil cooler you can get from Autolusso - Autolusso - Oil Coolers
Of course you are right, I shall do that, thanks
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And I assume you've checked how much oil is in the sump?

Something weird here, certainly check the oil cooler but there are versions of Busso V6 (164 12v 3.0 as one example) with no oil cooler at all and they would happily cruise at 180 km/h for hours, presumably without frying their oil.
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Get a bigger aftermarket oil cooling system , has anyone done that or has experience with that?
Yes on TS motors. Not done it yet on a V6. Same rules still apply... A sandwich at the filter housing that diverts the filtered oil to a cooler before it returns to the engine block

For my 2.0TS GTV racer I have a 19 row with thermostat that might be a bit of an overkill (I have not seen higher than 95C):
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...7&d=1400842765
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...5&d=1400842765

For my 156 2.0TS racer I had a smallish 9 row that was not working well enough (oil temp did get 115C at the end of a 20 minute race), it became the power steering cooler and I got a narrower cooler than on the GTV, still 19 row.
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...8&d=1461486113
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...1&d=1418043228

I buy most my stuff from:
http://www.mrturbo.co.za/index.php?o...id=40&Itemid=1

You can organize DHL (or whom ever) to collect from them and bring it to you.
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It would be interesting to see what your calculated load value is at 160-180km/h, maybe other GTA owners could give you some comparison figures.

If you have a partially blocked cat for example, this will increase the amount of work the engine has to do to sustain its speed, increasing heat and also decreasing heat-flow away from the engine. Its not something I've come across on a GTA before but you are running a highly strung Italian motor in Namibia and I can't imagine you have access to good quality fuels like we do in Europe.

Autolusso Penrith - UK's leading independent Alfa Romeo specialist with branches in Bedfordshire, Cumbria & Dorset

Wizard Exhaust systems available here

Tel: 01768 879 171
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Pud,

My comparison I can draw is racing full taps with a 9 row oil cooler lets the oil go up to 115C. With the 19 row it gets to 95C.... where in both cases the water temp is smack bang on 90.
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(Post Link) post #33 of 64 Old 04-10-16 Thread Starter
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Found this, could also be the 10w60 I am using?

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Let's get one thing clear, I supply 10w-60 and recommend it where it is appropriate for the engine or the application but conversly I caution against it's misuse!

I have debated this many times on many car forums and I know there are some that do not agree with me however I have never had a reasonable technical explanation why 10w-60 is in fact suitable, it's certainly not mentioned in the handbooks of many modern highly tuned performance cars, with the exception of some Alfa Romeos for "spirited driving" whatever that is meant supposed mean.

Explaining this is diffucult so there may be questions but I'll try my best to explain it in plain English!

Lets look at what oil specs actually mean and particularly the higher number which is in fact the oils SAE number (the "w" number is in fact the cold crank viscosity and measured in a different way) The SAE number is measured by the oils viscosity at 100degC.

Your cars require according to the manufacturers specs, sae 30, 40 and in some cases sae 50.

To attain the relevent sae number the oil has to be at 100degC (no thinner than)

SAE 30 11cst approx
SAE 40 14cst approx
SAE 50 18cst approx

Centistokes (cst) is the measure of a fluid's resistance to flow (viscosity). It is calculated in terms of the time required for a standard quantity of fluid at a certain temperature to flow through a standard orifice. The higher the value, the more viscous the fluid.

As viscosity varies with temperature, the value is meaningless unless accompanied by the temperature at which it is measured. In the case of oils, viscosity is generally reported in centistokes (cst) and usually measured at 40degC and 100degC.

SAE 60 is in fact 24cst viscosity at 100degC!

This is 33% thicker than an sae 50, 70% thicker than an sae 40 and over 100% thicker than an sae 30!

So, what's the problem with this thickness?

Well, this is measured at 100degC and at lower temps (70-90degC) all oils are thicker than at 100degC so the problem is compounded to some extent.

The downsides of such a thick oil (when not specified) are as follows:

Additional friction, heat and wear.
A reduction of BHP at the wheels
Lower fuel consumption

The thicker the oil is the more friction and drag and the more power the engine needs to move it around the engine which inevitably translates to less at the wheels.

So, when do we spec a thicker oil?

Well, you will probably have seen us on occassions recommending a 10w-50 but only in these circumstances.

1. If the car is heavily modded and heat/oil temperatures are excessive.
2. If the car is used on track and heat/oil temperatures are excessive.
3. If it's required by the handbook.

Our criteria for this is based on oil temps as an sae 40 semi-synthetic can handle around 110degC for limited periods whereas a proper synthetic sae 40 can hande 120-130degC for prolonged periods due to its thermal stability.

Once you see more than say 120degC for prolonged periods an sae 50 is adviseable as it is 18cst at 100degC and still 11cst at 130degC! This is in fact the same as an sae 30 at 100degC.

More importantly at 90degC an sae 40 is 15cst, an sae 50 is 20cst and an sae 60 is 30cst!

In a worst case scenario with thick oils (when not required) is that you will experience air entrainment and cavitation inside the bearings at high RPM. Not clever stuff!

I know this is technical stuff but oil is a combination of science and engineering and few people know enough about it to make an informed choice. Just because your mates use it and have had no problems is not a good enough reason to use it, your engine would prefer and benefit from the correct oil.

Cheers
Simon
She always had 10w60 full synthetic oil. The aircon was on full blow, yes, but only on long distances, on day to day commute she also reaches 120 Degrees Celcius mostly with the A/C off. Outside temp. was 37 Degrees Celcius, usually 34-35 Degrees.

last time the bumper was off I inspected the hoses, fins etc. and airflow, no probs. I do get the cat. smell pretty often...

Last edited by Aramis; 04-10-16 at 12:39.
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This article from Opieoils explains how oil viscosity of different oil grades changes as they are heated, and not why you have to high oil temperatures.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lizard View Post
This article from Opieoils explains how oil viscosity of different oil grades changes as they are heated, and not why you have to high oil temperatures.
No, it explains why sometimes not to use 10w60 especially taking my location into consideration.

Your post contributes what exactly?
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10W-60 is specified by factory for 3.2 V6 in your Alfa, especially when used for sporty driving and high temperature climate.

And this is what this article also explains - if you would be using lets say 10W-40 and push it hard (while air temperatures are also high), this oil would heat up so much that it would behave as if it is xxW-30 oil and start loosing its properties faster, and might not offer proper lubrication at that point. While 10W-60 on the other hand, would heat up more than 10W-40 under the same circumstances, but would still offer proper lubrication.

If I check my handbook for Alfa 166 which has the same 3.2 engine as GT and GTAs, it says to use 10W-40 oil for normal use (for 2.5, 3.0 and 3.2 CF3 engines), and 10W-60 for sporty driving (as these engines have cats in the exaust manifolds, they can heat up a lot!). I still maintain though, that 10W-50 oil is right in the middle of those two and should be used in Alfa V6 engines... as I believe that 10W-60 Alfa recommended because this was the grade Selenia could offer as their high performance oil, and those two have been partners for decades.

The article otherwise tries to explain why someone should be cautious when trying to use 10W-60 in an engine, that does not have this oil grade recommended by the handbook.

Last edited by lizard; 04-10-16 at 15:59.
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I still don't know if your oil temp gets so high only during spirited driving or also during normal city, B road or highway cruising.
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Originally Posted by Gertie View Post
Pud,

My comparison I can draw is racing full taps with a 9 row oil cooler lets the oil go up to 115C. With the 19 row it gets to 95C.... where in both cases the water temp is smack bang on 90.
Is this oil temp as measured using an aftermarket gauge?

We don't actually know if Aramis has a high oil temp problem, or just a problem with his infocentre showing a high oil temp.
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Originally Posted by Gertie View Post
Pud,

My comparison I can draw is racing full taps with a 9 row oil cooler lets the oil go up to 115C. With the 19 row it gets to 95C.... where in both cases the water temp is smack bang on 90.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pud237 View Post
Is this oil temp as measured using an aftermarket gauge?

We don't actually know if Aramis has a high oil temp problem, or just a problem with his infocentre showing a high oil temp.
My case it was aftermarket gauge, yes.

Aramis - it will not be that easy to test, as you need to get close to the sump - but do get hold of a thermometer:
Adendorff :: Product : INFRARED TEMPERATURE TESTER

I use it a lot - like calibrate my gauges:
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...4&d=1423164724
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It says so under the bars? 60 80 100 120 140
I seriously doubt that being correct.. The pressure drops when the temp rises.
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I seriously doubt that being correct.. The pressure drops when the temp rises.
Wait, I think you have the wrong connection - We are not discussing oil pressure here...

The display shows oil temperature on a BAR-GRAPH - does not show pressure (in bar)

Each line (bar) on the graph is 20 deg C oil temp increment
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I had a chance last night to get under her and check the oil cooler, it looks almost new, all shiny, fins are not bend at all, all pipes and connections have no leaks whatsoever.

I will try and source the laser thermometer to take actual reading of temp. right now I will do an oil and oil filter change as well as front brake pad replacements tonight because Saturday I have to go again for my 800km's round trip to see my girl.

Thanks for all the help and effort so far, I appreciate it.
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Keep it simple.

Chuck a blanket in the boot.

Go for a fast drive.

Stop. Lay blanket by the front offside (in the UK) wheel

Lie on blanket.

With your right hand, grab the oil cooler from underneath.

If HOT - then you have some unknown problem.

If COLD - your oil take off thermostat is knackered.

OK?
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Oil take off thermostat is about as much fun as doing an alternator, ask me how I know
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gertie View Post
Wait, I think you have the wrong connection - We are not discussing oil pressure here...

The display shows oil temperature on a BAR-GRAPH - does not show pressure (in bar)

Each line (bar) on the graph is 20 deg C oil temp increment
So how do you calculate the pressure then since it doesn't show it? If temperature rises pressure drops...
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So how do you calculate the pressure then since it doesn't show it? If temperature rises pressure drops...
Read more carefully - noone is talking about or calulating oil pressure. By bar they do not mean a unit of pressure, but as stated in a comment you just quoted, a bar is a line on the display. Each line represents 20C. Google bar chart, for example, to better uderstand what they mean.
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Read more carefully - noone is talking about or calculating oil pressure.
Who is this noone guy?

NO reference to oil pressure - OEM only have a warning SWITCH for low pressure - for actual pressure readings, you'll need a aftermarket sensor and gauge:
http://www.glowshiftdirect.com/produ...ender_Main.jpg
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/attac...6&d=1423164724
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So I did the oil change and filter change, she runs much smoother now but short test drive maybe 5km's and she was back at 120 Degrees in no time. This is bar 4, not pressure rating bar,lol

I will try the "feel oil cooler by hand" next drive out, hope it is not the oil take off thermostat because I just completed my month of hellride with the alternator change
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lizard View Post
Read more carefully - noone is talking about or calulating oil pressure. By bar they do not mean a unit of pressure, but as stated in a comment you just quoted, a bar is a line on the display. Each line represents 20C. Google bar chart, for example, to better uderstand what they mean.

Now I understood, apologies!
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Back to the grade of oil conversation does anyone recommend 5-50w ? limited knowledge but wouldn't this be better for cold starts which we are about to experience here very soon?

I did here, on here I think, that we use the thicker grade oil as using say a thinner 10-40w would mean lots of top ups?
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