JTS on LPG - any experiences - Alfa Romeo Forum
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Wave JTS on LPG - any experiences

I have a pristine 156 JTS Selespeed SW with only 27k on it. Brought it in from the far east last year and currently have it up for sale at a shade under 2k - Alfa Romeo 156 JTS Selespeed SW, 28k, pristine For Sale (2002) on Car And Classic UK [C776223]

Anyway, I have had little interest in it so far so was thinking of keeping it for my regular commute and converting to LPG. I have various stations close by and the cost is only 53p so a no brainer really for my 70 mile round trip.

I've seen that direct injection engines are a bit more of a challenge to regular injection (VW/AUDI have the same with the FSI) - but wondered if anyone has had a conversion done and, if working well, who did it for them?

Alfa Romeo history in order - 156 Sele, 156 Sele, Spider 156jtd facelift, 147 1.6, 156 GTA, GTV 3.0, 156jtd, 145QV, 156GTA, 145qv
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I have a pristine 156 JTS Selespeed SW with only 27k on it. Brought it in from the far east last year and currently have it up for sale at a shade under 2k - Alfa Romeo 156 JTS Selespeed SW, 28k, pristine For Sale (2002) on Car And Classic UK [C776223]

Anyway, I have had little interest in it so far so was thinking of keeping it for my regular commute and converting to LPG. I have various stations close by and the cost is only 53p so a no brainer really for my 70 mile round trip.

I've seen that direct injection engines are a bit more of a challenge to regular injection (VW/AUDI have the same with the FSI) - but wondered if anyone has had a conversion done and, if working well, who did it for them?
I was wondering the same myself. Currently have a 1.6TS 156 on LPG and thought about moving to a JTS. Hope we get some answers.
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How is the twin spark on it?
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Twin spark was designed with LPG in mind as they use it a lot in Italy and Europe anyway. So the engine takes to it very well. Also the actual Twin spark helps the LPG combustion being a dry fuel.

The JTS however doesn't take to it so well. There are come kit's you can use but they tend to be pricey and they still use petrol / lpg blend rather than just lpg. Lowering the cost savings overall. Some one on here had done it but experience high exhaust temperatures. But that might have been due to the install rather than mechanical.

Basically anything with direct injection with LPG currently is in it's infancy. Where as port injection has been done for a while and the systems are very well known.

You can however put a port intake system into the JTS and have it run as long as you get the injectors as close to the cylinders as possible. But you may still get MSCF light flare up. However it will work.


If the car was an audi / merc / vw or those German brands with higher sales figures you'd probably get some of the bigger LPG manufactures create custom made systems for the cars. But as there is little sales of jts engines they are not really catered for in the same way.



Basically yes can be done. But you'll have trouble. If its the first install you've done I'd avoid it.

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Alfa 166 2.0 Twinnie - LPG and a few trick performance parts
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Twin spark was designed with LPG in mind as they use it a lot in Italy and Europe anyway. So the engine takes to it very well. Also the actual Twin spark helps the LPG combustion being a dry fuel.

The JTS however doesn't take to it so well. There are come kit's you can use but they tend to be pricey and they still use petrol / lpg blend rather than just lpg. Lowering the cost savings overall. Some one on here had done it but experience high exhaust temperatures. But that might have been due to the install rather than mechanical.

Basically anything with direct injection with LPG currently is in it's infancy. Where as port injection has been done for a while and the systems are very well known.

You can however put a port intake system into the JTS and have it run as long as you get the injectors as close to the cylinders as possible. But you may still get MSCF light flare up. However it will work.


If the car was an audi / merc / vw or those German brands with higher sales figures you'd probably get some of the bigger LPG manufactures create custom made systems for the cars. But as there is little sales of jts engines they are not really catered for in the same way.



Basically yes can be done. But you'll have trouble. If its the first install you've done I'd avoid it.
Why can I not just disconnect the petrol feed to the tank, which is pumped (20 PSI?) and feed it into the JTS pump. The LPG can be regulated such that it remains liquid up to the pump.

Last edited by sizewell; 07-09-16 at 09:39. Reason: Petrol feed from the tank
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Because LPG to remain in a liquid state needs to be held at pressure. So it's already at roughly 5-8 bar.
So replacing the lines with LPG will knacker the feed lines. Let alone anything else as the liquid expands to gas as it enters the cylinder and floods the thing with way too much fuel.

The injectors are completely different too. They need to operate at a much higher on off close servo. Way higher than the petrol versions. Which is why you hear them click a lot louder as well.

Nice try though...
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Because LPG to remain in a liquid state needs to be held at pressure. So it's already at roughly 5-8 bar.
So replacing the lines with LPG will knacker the feed lines. Let alone anything else as the liquid expands to gas as it enters the cylinder and floods the thing with way too much fuel.

The injectors are completely different too. They need to operate at a much higher on off close servo. Way higher than the petrol versions. Which is why you hear them click a lot louder as well.

Nice try though...
Succinct and to the point, Thanks.
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I'm really not trying to rain on anyone's parade here.
It can be done and technology for DI is coming along nicely with LPG. But the issue here is that the tech is there. But Rnd Into the JTS engine specific to your car is a bit of an unknown and limited.

Your best bet would be to go to the LPGforum and ask the installers there that do it for a living if it can be done successfully. You'll get lots of support and straight answers without the fluff.

If they can't do it they will be straight with you.

However you need to do the sum's for yourself. It might be cheaper and more reliable in the end to buy a second car to do that commute or I'd hate to say buy a car with a more economical engine in the first instance. No one likes to hear that but its a fact.

I commute circa over 20k a year and LPG was a no brainer for me as I prefer petrol to diesel. I live in Birmingham where I buy LPG @ 37p a litre currently. So the savings over even a diesel are about £700 a year.

So I get to have my cake and eat it. I purchased the kit for £500 and used it on all variants of the TS engine. Same kit. From 1.6 up to 2.0l on the 166. Only down side so far is tank range of 200 miles. But its a compromise I am willing to make. (I have a fuel card and 24hr access as I buy in bulk).

But even with the right car and engine. Depending on your commute it could even with the savings be more of a pain than you realise. It all depends on your circumstances.
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70 miles a day is going to use 2 gallons of juice in a JTS roughly.. so just under a tenner at £1.08 a litre.

LPG say 2.5 gallons as there is less energy and you'll run it a little richer to aid cooling and prevent damage, at 53p a litre thats six quid a day fuel costs. So you'll save twenty quid a week on your 5 day commute. Assume a £1500 install cost, after 18 months you'll break even. After 3 years of use you'll have saved £1500, or roughly £10 a week.. Is it worth it?
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I'd say so! As you know I also will be using it to go to France 5 times a year + the normal family running - I reckon 25-30k a year.

Not an issue anymore as the JTS has sold. I'm now looking for the right vehicle to convert or get a good low mileage car and have it converted. Current favorites are Audi a4/a6.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyf View Post
I'm really not trying to rain on anyone's parade here.
It can be done and technology for DI is coming along nicely with LPG. But the issue here is that the tech is there. But Rnd Into the JTS engine specific to your car is a bit of an unknown and limited.

Your best bet would be to go to the LPGforum and ask the installers there that do it for a living if it can be done successfully. You'll get lots of support and straight answers without the fluff.

If they can't do it they will be straight with you.

However you need to do the sum's for yourself. It might be cheaper and more reliable in the end to buy a second car to do that commute or I'd hate to say buy a car with a more economical engine in the first instance. No one likes to hear that but its a fact.

I commute circa over 20k a year and LPG was a no brainer for me as I prefer petrol to diesel. I live in Birmingham where I buy LPG @ 37p a litre currently. So the savings over even a diesel are about £700 a year.

So I get to have my cake and eat it. I purchased the kit for £500 and used it on all variants of the TS engine. Same kit. From 1.6 up to 2.0l on the 166. Only down side so far is tank range of 200 miles. But its a compromise I am willing to make. (I have a fuel card and 24hr access as I buy in bulk).

But even with the right car and engine. Depending on your commute it could even with the savings be more of a pain than you realise. It all depends on your circumstances.
No, seriously Scotty & Pud, thanks for being succinct. I wasn't thinking of using the pipework from the petrol tank, more connecting a high pressure line into the JTS pump. A regulator would match the pressure currently at that point and then the JTS pump would inject at the existing cylinder pressure. The actual connection on the 3.2 is very accessible. But then again I don't know enough about the physics or the mechanics to say whether it would work. Just thought it might be possible. I'm retired so it's my toy and I don't want to part with it. Sounds like a possible project though. But if it is already being investigated/developed, I need to take a look see.
Thanks anyhow.
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Normal LPG injections works by the following ->

Tank filled with LPG as a liquid under high pressure. (So no fuel pump is required) Normally houses in the boot.

Faro lines of 6mm or 8mm take the gas to the front of the car where you have a Vapouriser or reducer (Same thing different name)

This take heat from the engines coolant system.
It need's this heat because as LPG turns from liquid to gas it expands. Now what did we learn at school... As gas expands it removes heats. So without the reducer the gas would freeze everything as it expands.

Now the reducer is also plumbed into the inlet for MAP (Manifold Air pressure) or suction in laymans terms as you open and close the throttle. This regulates the gas pressure down from say 8bar to usually a steady 1.2bar (You can adjust this much like adjusting your fuel pump from say 1bar to 1.5bar this is how diesels work when they want more power. Inject more fuel for each opening and let the ECU force in the right amount of air via the turbo - Petrols work differently though.). This gas is then feed through a large pipe to your Gas injectors.

Your gas injectors should be as close to the original injectors as possible to replicate the original injectors. Too far away and they react too slow to throttle adjustments.

Now gas injectors don't operate as quickly as their petrol counterparts. Also LPG ignites differently too. It has different octane properties.
The injectors are wired in to your original injectors. With a bit of tweaking as you need more gas than petrol from the same combustion or power. Which is why you get worse mpg than you do on petrol.

Fortunatly most alfa's and german car's are easy to convert. There are already clips for additional fuel lines. Holes have been cut to assist you etc. My second install took a day to remove from my old car and put in the new and get it fired up (The tweaking in the software usually requires you to drive round and make adjustments and it can be fiddly so you don't get a warning light) again i stay on the slightly rich side.


now the issue with DI is that you'd have to replace the petrol injector that sits by the spark plugs with a gas injector that also flows petrol.
Gas also runs a higher exhaust temp gas due to being a dry fuel. It does go in cooler though. So has a little cooling effect.
The earlier systems had to say inject 10-15% petrol all the time with the remaining being gas. So you never got the full savings. Along with the downsides of LPG (Less fuel stations, pricing is all over the place and limited fuel range) meant it wasn't worth it for many.

Now things have moved on and it might be better.

I have heard and seen some DI conversions with port (Same as my setup) with success. But the injector timings needed to be fudged a little.
I mean the ECU wants to inject and update far quicker on a DI engine becasue well the injector is right there in the cylinder. Rather than 5-6cm way in the air stream in the manifold.

But it can be done.

Anyway I've rambled on far too long.
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I don't think doing a 2.0 JTS would be much different from doing a Twinspark. You just need a method of turning off the petrol injectors. Gas injectors could be tapped into the metal intake runners. Then its just a matter of calibration and tuning much like any other engine. I think you'd need to remove the cats from the manifold though, they get hot enough on petrol nevermind on LPG.
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Here's a link. These people although not the cheapest offer very good advice and support and decent kits. But it's a start point if you like to weild a spanner.

Put it this way I'd rather install an lpg kit than work on suspension parts.

Direct Injection Engines | Tinley Tech
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottyf View Post
Normal LPG injections works by the following ->

Tank filled with LPG as a liquid under high pressure. (So no fuel pump is required) Normally houses in the boot.

Faro lines of 6mm or 8mm take the gas to the front of the car where you have a Vapouriser or reducer (Same thing different name)

This take heat from the engines coolant system.
It need's this heat because as LPG turns from liquid to gas it expands. Now what did we learn at school... As gas expands it removes heats. So without the reducer the gas would freeze everything as it expands.

Now the reducer is also plumbed into the inlet for MAP (Manifold Air pressure) or suction in laymans terms as you open and close the throttle. This regulates the gas pressure down from say 8bar to usually a steady 1.2bar (You can adjust this much like adjusting your fuel pump from say 1bar to 1.5bar this is how diesels work when they want more power. Inject more fuel for each opening and let the ECU force in the right amount of air via the turbo - Petrols work differently though.). This gas is then feed through a large pipe to your Gas injectors.

Your gas injectors should be as close to the original injectors as possible to replicate the original injectors. Too far away and they react too slow to throttle adjustments.

Now gas injectors don't operate as quickly as their petrol counterparts. Also LPG ignites differently too. It has different octane properties.
The injectors are wired in to your original injectors. With a bit of tweaking as you need more gas than petrol from the same combustion or power. Which is why you get worse mpg than you do on petrol.

Fortunatly most alfa's and german car's are easy to convert. There are already clips for additional fuel lines. Holes have been cut to assist you etc. My second install took a day to remove from my old car and put in the new and get it fired up (The tweaking in the software usually requires you to drive round and make adjustments and it can be fiddly so you don't get a warning light) again i stay on the slightly rich side.


now the issue with DI is that you'd have to replace the petrol injector that sits by the spark plugs with a gas injector that also flows petrol.
Gas also runs a higher exhaust temp gas due to being a dry fuel. It does go in cooler though. So has a little cooling effect.
The earlier systems had to say inject 10-15% petrol all the time with the remaining being gas. So you never got the full savings. Along with the downsides of LPG (Less fuel stations, pricing is all over the place and limited fuel range) meant it wasn't worth it for many.

Now things have moved on and it might be better.

I have heard and seen some DI conversions with port (Same as my setup) with success. But the injector timings needed to be fudged a little.
I mean the ECU wants to inject and update far quicker on a DI engine becasue well the injector is right there in the cylinder. Rather than 5-6cm way in the air stream in the manifold.

But it can be done.

Anyway I've rambled on far too long.
No! All good. Thanks
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How is the twin spark on it?
To answer the question by GTA_Russ, the LPG is working great in my 1.6TS.
Drove 350km (220miles) yesterday to and from Dublin on motorway @ 100 - 110kph (60 - 70 mph) and got a consumption of 9l/100km (31mpg)
Cost here is 68.9 Euro cent /l (58p) so it costs about the same to run as diesel.
I do at least 40k-km per year, (25k miles) so it is worth it for me

I presume for the JTS, the LPG ECU would need to handle both sets of injectors so it is different from the norm.
Unless you completely ignored the direct injection injectors and just use the "standard" injectors while the engine is warming up?
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Where to get it done..

I have had my 156 1.8 T-Spark on LPG for 6 years and a good success...
Low running costs...
I am now moving over to a 156 JTS 2.0....

Direct Injection

best of luck...
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Just another thought on JTS LPG: What if you used the DI injectors for water/methanol mix, and fit standard vapour phase LPG injectors into inlet manifold. Cooling action on DI Injectors, reduce any knocking, and able to run solely on LPG. Maybe with novelty startup petrol tank.
And thoughts?

Liquid Phase Injection using Original DI Injectors, is obviously ideal, but have mixed info about setup. One says just build with in tank pump(LPG), solenoid, to rail and use alfa ecu.
Others saying using separate injectors in manifold, and piggyback ecu.
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