Alfa Romeo Forum banner

147 1.9 16v JTD Non starter, tried the usuals..

Tags
usuals
18K views 69 replies 12 participants last post by  Dribbly 
#1 · (Edited)
1.9 16v JTD Not starting, tried the usuals. Pics added

Hi I'm newly registered but a long term browser, had an alfa 156 Veloce sportwagon 2.0TS, gorgeous car and I loved it dearly, sold it as quite simply I wanted something smaller and most importantly needed fuel economy so flogged it and was buying an A3TDi...

So late one night I ended up buying a 147 1.9 16v jtd Mjet 150bhp face lift on 05 with 108k and "full service history and cam belt and tensioners changed at 106k so nothing to do"...

Brilliant when I picked it up but over the following two weeks it became annoying, it was cold weather but even on warmer mornings it was a poor starter, had poor performance and just laggy as hell, I should point out I have experience of these having used and worked on dads zafira and Astra SRi 150.. so I knew something was wrong

Into the garage and stripped off egr as its usual suspect and swapped it for a good cleaned up example I had, BUT upon doing so I noticed the inlet tracts were blocked so off with the vaccum valve and boost pipes, it was seriously cacked up. I should point out that upon removing this valve the alien key I was using touched from the valve to the positive battery terminal fuse plate (more on this later)

Cleaned out all the inlet best as possible and cleaned all the tracts for egr, refitted old egr after finding it was good and functioning and fitted a restrixter plate, cleaned vaccumn flap and refitted and removed and cleaned boost sensor

All back together and it wouldn't start, just constant turning to the point of flattening battery. Tried a jump start off the zafira and nothing so tried a bump start and same again nothing, back in garage and I knew it was something else, avid reader of astra owners club and a guy on there had had an astra (same engine) poor starter and then one day non start, so I stripped off timing belt covers and sure enough cam belt was loose and tensioner wasn't right, got AST lock tools and sure enough timing was out

All belts and covers off, injectors out and rocker cover off and sure enough 9 cracked rockers, replaced em all, new water pump, gen cambelt kit, aux belt and tensioners and most importantly aligned the two cans which had slipped on the cam gears

all back together and it won't start, got latest version of multiscan on it which reckons its fine and no codes at all, fuel rail pressure 436 bar. Battery voltage 12.55 (after charge) etc etc

It has a quite substantial 1.4 amp draw on the battery which so far I have reduced down to 0.75 by taking out fuse 39 on internal fuse box which is for boot release and climate control and diagnostic socket, I belive this draw is due to the VERY SHORT earthing I did of the battery positive st start but am loathed to know why, suggestions of this forum would be body computer gone... but none of the other symptoms

Ideas people, very much appreciated

Ps I'm no master mechanic but have done 2 172 conversions in renault sport clios and a full rebuild of a 182RS engine
 
See less See more
#30 ·
Well just been and got a new genuine crank sensor and fitted it

View attachment new log.pdf

still no rpm output :rant: its seated right, its connected right, rechecked cam sensor and wiring and still nowt

agreed surprised theres no other experts on this thread but your doing a great job keeping me looking at it :thumbs: serioursly cant thank you enough

i spent 2 hours this morning searching for rpm output and all came back to crank sensor, 3 being like mine having no fault codes, will do new thread now and then try heat gun down intake
 
#32 ·
no rpm signal still BUT when cranking the rev counter shows 200 revs.. odd?

assuming clocks get there details from ecu, but according to mes there is no rpm signal?

ps heat gun running through intake pipes and heating up intake quite a bit with heat gun made no difference
 
#35 ·
Funny you should say this as at 7 I had dad come round with the zafira, swapped sensors and made no difference at all on both diagnostics still having no reading and it still not starting, cant help but say though it REALLY wants to right now :eek:

Thankyou for the replies I shall look at them docs later, currently out at pub treating the missus as I've been neglecting her of late while out messing with the mistress (this alfa) :lol:
 
#36 ·
#37 ·
I understand that some crank sensors have an 'o' ring which can get left in the housing when you remove the crank sensor. When you fit the new one with it's o ring it results in a larger gap between sensor and flywheel. Are you sure that the old o ring came out? Sounds like a very frustrating problem indeed. Good luck with sorting it.
 
#38 ·
It looks to me like you might have an injector that is faulty which is losing your pressure. That is why when you disconnect the cam sensor and the ECU doesn't send the signal to fire, the rail pressure rises to what it should be.

Try removing the leakoff pipes and catching what comes out of each injector when you are cranking (I hope you are keeping your battery well charged). If one or more of them is letting a significant amount past then it is worth further investigation.

I still have no idea why you are reading no engine RPM but like you said, if the dashboard is reading it then the ECU must be seeing it somewhere
 
#39 ·
UOld sensor came out complete gtv160. Old seal was first thing I checked for, new sensor isseated flat and tight and unlike the cam sensor has no angle adjustment and yes your very much right, frustrating isn't the word, over 3k and I've driven it for 2 week before it broke

Johny id thought this but the previous logs if you remember really weren't far off? And you know oddest part? If you look to the left of the graph at the battery v you'll not ir the battery has far less charge yet managed to achieve good bar still even though not turning as fast :-/

I honestly think the rpm signal is whats stopping it, its felt like its about to start so many times but doesnt, its like something stops it, searching the forum and google its suggested that the body computer gives all details to the clocks, obviously second hand off the ecu but THIS could. Mean its just an electrical short in body computer that's causing the gauge reading? Because the ecumenical receiving signal would priorities over the clocks surely?
 
#41 ·
Already got a quality jump lead onto the suspension tower as earth loss is a common problem experienced with the many Renaults ive done, very much thankyou for the tip though, cant believe how many times ive had convince people to try it on cliosport net

tonight while at work (where i do all my thinking :lol: ) ive come to the conclusion i need to do a compression test as loss of it would explain 90% of the symptoms, how many agree? its around £70 trade for a suitable tester so not a cheap test...
 
#42 ·
Have you taken off the top boost hose and looked at the state of the throttlebody yet? I've seen them so coked up they can't open, so the engine doesn't get any air!

I've not read through the whole thread so sorry if you've already mentioned this.
 
#43 ·
Yeah pud thats what started all this :lol:

Just TRIED to do the inector leak back test.. quite simply couldnt as it kept pushing fuel out, from the return pipe? :confused: as in i filled a lucozade bottle in 5 seconds? :wow:
 
#45 ·
using the main return pipe coming off injector 1? yes the rubber ones off top, how daft do you think i am :lol:


.......dont answer :cheese::lol:
 
#46 ·
hi Metz, car was running (albeit poorly) before you did any work. Did the timing belt issue only arise after trying to start it after the first work? Assuming the timing works etc. have been done correctly have you eliminated the possible damage (if any) caused by the electrical short. It is a bit coincidental is it not to have a new unrelated fault appear? Good luck.
 
#47 ·
Very much agreed Gtv160, thats why im so ****ed off with myself :cry: and more than anything :confused::mad:

i ran my own car repair and paint business uptill a couple of years ago and this is the only car to kick me about like this :rant:

electrical short of 1.4v is taken down to 0.65 by removing the 15amp fuse for climate/boot release/diagnostic socket, got no further than that? everything lights up, no fault lights etc :confused:
 
#49 ·
Thankyou so so much :thumbs: you have shown me where ive gone wrong yet again :cry: (collecting what was coming from where screw driver is in your vid)

i sooo wish i could delete my above posts so i dont look such an idiot :cheese::cheese:

will go try it properly in a bit :)
 
#50 ·
As a quick check could you disconnect 1 inj plug at a time and crank, if 1 bad inj might start on 3.
But then if too much is leaking off, i think it still might with plug off.
Dont try to block off inj leak off pipes at all.
1st attempt at that leak off test resulted in damaging an injector because the fittings to the injector had not been fully drilled and one was totally blanked ,cranked over and wondered why it blew out and hit bonnet!(get what you pay for, i bought a cheap kit)
Nobody gets by without a few mistakes, especially non mechanics learning as we go on our own cars.
 
#56 · (Edited)
Well we all love a good bit of suspense ;)

... No in all seriousness its just I wanted to check it was indeed all fixed and starting well etc before coming on here playing magician/master mechanic :cheese::cheese:

The electrical short originally mentioned of 1.42v was infact the well documented electric window/mirror control unit in the drivers door, just the usually found 0.6-0.7v drain was in my case nearly double, I discounted this option as I had such a big draw and more oddly everything worked but upon draw hunting nothing was dropping the figure untill that is I unplugged the drivers door, so I removed the drivers control unit and plugged the door back in and the draw was down to 0.47 which is acceptable IME

The starting fix?.... well that I can only put down to the superb help and encouragement of you helpful lot and telling me to do a leak back test, I believe the fuel system was in some way air locked despite the system being apparently self bleeding. I did a leak back test but results were crap, after watching his video I realised id done it wrong :tut:

So I went back and did it properly, using a special attachment in the return feed etc. Fook that I used a trusty posi drive in there same as in the video :lol: and now doing it properly I got a couple of drops/spots off each injector, put all back together and went inside confident I had yet again achieved fuk all :mad::mad:

10 minutes before setting off for work I went back in garage and just before closing up garage looked at car longingly wondering whether to fetch a jerry can of petrol on my way home and get it all out my way :rolleyes:, I reached in turned it over and just as I released the key from turning it spluttered... Its never done that since all this started... so I switched it totally off, back on, wait for glow plug light then after the longest 10 seconds ever of cranking it fired into life and ticked over :wow::eek::wow:

I then had to go work, on friday it didn't start straight away but did start, treated it to a new set of quality Beru plugs and it starts sweet as a nut every time now and is smoother than its ever been, pulls smoothly and cleanly, if I'm honest here I'm slightly dissapointed, its not as quick as the zafira, just not feeling as strong on boost or heavyness of it, I honestly thought id of got all this back while it was apart as I have, I think made everything the best it can. :(

Thankyou to all that helped. Sussexa especially, you don't know how close I was to giving up, if it was a customers car I almost certainly would have if for nothing else but time constraints, your all damn genius.

Wayne
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top