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Bleeding Brakes on 147 2.0 Selespeed

3K views 6 replies 2 participants last post by  aopa25 
#1 ·
Hi all

This is my first post, I've been nosying around here for a while but now I need help!

I had the car in the local garage two weeks ago to have new brake pads fitted and they 'topped up' the brake fluid. Lo and behold though I was out checking the oil the other day and I found that they had forgotten to screw the cap back on!!!

Luckily I found it still in the engine bay under some pipes but from what I've been reading I would really need to get the brakes flushed after being exposed to the air.

I have the car with a different mechanic on Monday to have this looked at (along with fitting a replacement for the rusty/dented back box), he's not an alfa specialist but I'm kind of stuck for any over here in the west of N. Ireland. I'm not sure if he sees too many selespeeds but I know he has looked at the odd Alfa..

I noticed the brake fluid tank is also shared with the hydraulic clutch fluid...I already know the selespeed has its own reservoir for changing the gears.

1) But I presume the brake fluid and gear box fluid comes from the same reservoir tank then?

2) If so, when he is bleeding the brakes does he also need to bleed the clutch somehow? I know this can be done with Alfadiag or Examiner but this guy would only have generic equipment.

3) Can he bleed the clutch manually somehow or can this only really be done with software?

4) Could he get away with just bleeding the brakes or would I really need the clutch done too?

On a further note I have recently noticed a noise (simlar to when you reverse a car at speed) happening from time to time; it only lasts for a second or two and doesn't happen all the time, could this mean the clutch position needs adjusting sometime or is it something to do with the flywheel or something? (I'm not too knowledgeable when it comes to a car, more technical minded).

I have ordered the OBD2 cable but it still hasn't come yet and I'm too fleeced to buy Alfadiag just yet either.


Cheers and thanks for your help....
 
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#2 · (Edited)
Hello,

For the Selespeed, the brake fluid reservoir does not supply the clutch. The Selespeed operates the clutch using the Selespeed hydraulic fluid. The Selespeed fluid is in that tank just inside the wing with the black plastic cap (and incidentally, only ever use approved Selespeed fluid, not standard automatic transmission fluid).

If the cap was only off the brake fluid reservoir for a day or two, and you didn't wash the engine bay and water hasn't run into the reservoir, I don't see any great problem - I don't think you need to bleed the system. I'd just put the cap back on and not worry about it.

If, though, you have no record of the system ever having had the fluid changed, it might be a good time to do so (the recommendation is to change the fluid every two years).

It is a conventional process to bleed the brakes - some people use a pressure bleeder (a device such as the Gunsons Eezibleed) attached to the reservoir that pressurises the system, then the bleed nipple on each brake is opened in turn. Other people just open each bleed nipple (with clear plastic pipe attached) and tread on the pedal a few times until the fluid in the pipe is clear of bubbles. Some people frown on the latter technique because of the chance of jamming ABS solenoid valves or wearing the master cylinder (with the pedal fully-down, the piston seals being pushed into a part of the cylinder where they don't normally go).

Any garage familiar with bleeding brakes on other cars should have no problem doing the 147 brakes for you - and there is no need to touch the clutch. I think you should go back to the workshop that worked on the brakes, point out that they left the cap off, and ask nicely if they might be able to bleed the brakes for you.

As for the other whining noise in the transmission - I don't know - you need someone familiar with Selespeeds to listen to that one, but I doubt it's a Selespeed-control-related problem - more likely to be a gearbox fault. For a start, make sure the gearbox oil level is correct (the gearbox has its own, standard gear oil in addition to the special Selespeed fluid - many people don't realise that). The fill plug for the gearbox is on the front of the gearbox with a 12mm hex socket. When the plug is removed, oil should just start to run out with the car parked on the level. If not, top it up using a gear oil (such as Tutela ZC75 from a FIAT dealer). I find a plastic funnel and piece of garden hose is helpful.

EDIT: a whining noise that lasts for a second or two and starts/ends with a 'click' from under the left corner of the dashboard - that's the Selespeed pump running - normal behaviour is for the pump to run every two or three gearchanges...

Hope this helps and doesn't confuse/worry you any more :)

-Alex
 
#3 ·
Hi many thanks for your reply mate,


So let me get it straight on a selespeed 147 model there is a selespeed oil reservoir, brake fluid reservoir and its own gear fluid accessed at the front of the gearbox then?

I think what was confusing me was that the cap was labelled for a hydraulic brake & clutch.

The cap was off for around 10 days but I think I will still get the brakes flushed anyway because as you say I have no record of it being done and I've read somewhere that this is recommended at 30,000 mile intervals.

As for the whining noise I forgot to say it happens more often when doing hill starts or when the car is cold. I agree with you that I don't think its a Selespeed problem as it still selects gears fine and I only ever got Selespeed Failure once. I reckon the gear box oil level could really do with a check but on a side note I'm not convinced my gear changes sound 'normal' beyond the sound of the selespeed pump. There is no clunk/grinding noise or anything like that but it sounds more like a 'gasping' noise. I presumed this was maybe the natural note of the gear change in an Alfa or TS engine but I'm beginning to wonder now...

I'm not too sure if I want to go back to the workshop that left the cap off as I am thinking if they forgot about that, what else might they forget about, especially when flushing the brakes. I once had Kwik Fit mess up a gearbox on a Vauxhall so I don't really trust them kind of places!

Any thoughts?
 
#4 · (Edited)
So let me get it straight on a selespeed 147 model there is a selespeed oil reservoir, brake fluid reservoir and its own gear fluid accessed at the front of the gearbox then?
Yes.
- Selespeed oil operates the gear selectors and the clutch... needs special Selespeed 'liquid gold' oil (i.e. very expensive!)

- Brake fluid, obviously enough, operates the brakes... any standard DOT4 fluid is fine

- Gearbox oil lubricates the gears and differential gear inside the gearbox... any gear oil designed for modern gearboxes should work, but preferably semi-synthetic and if in doubt, just get the genuine oil at a dealer (not very expensive)

I think what was confusing me was that the cap was labelled for a hydraulic brake & clutch.
Indeed, that would be confusing, and applies to the manual-transmission version without Selespeed.

The cap was off for around 10 days but I think I will still get the brakes flushed anyway because as you say I have no record of it being done and I've read somewhere that this is recommended at 30,000 mile intervals.
Good plan :) Also, brake pad changes done on the cheap sometimes involve pistons being pushed back with clamps etc. that pushes old dirty fluid from the caliper back into the system. The proper way is to open the bleed nipple so that the dirty fluid escapes - at which point, the person doing the job may as well bleed the system properly. Since it's hard to tell what's done when you pay for a brake pad change, I think you're taking the right approach. Maybe the brake fluid has already been changed - but who knows?

As for the whining noise I forgot to say it happens more often when doing hill starts or when the car is cold. I agree with you that I don't think its a Selespeed problem as it still selects gears fine and I only ever got Selespeed Failure once. I reckon the gear box oil level could really do with a check but on a side note I'm not convinced my gear changes sound 'normal' beyond the sound of the selespeed pump. There is no clunk/grinding noise or anything like that but it sounds more like a 'gasping' noise. I presumed this was maybe the natural note of the gear change in an Alfa or TS engine but I'm beginning to wonder now...
It's really hard to diagnose that sort of thing without driving the car. There may be nothing wrong at all, the oil could be low, the input shaft bearing could be noisy (but able to last for years in this condition), or the clutch could be about to fail. It would pay to find an Alfa specialist and get their opinion which you should trust more than any of my guesses, and it is definitely important to at least check the gearbox oil or have it checked.

Some handbooks/service guides were confusing on this point, because they implied that the special Selespeed oil was the only oil in the system that needed checking/topping up. I wonder how many cars go for years without the gearbox oil being checked/topped up. Of course, it should not leak away, but you just never know.

Personally, even though it is not in the service schedule, I think it is best to drain the gearbox oil every couple of years (it often has a swirling silver mist of tiny metal particles) and refill with fresh oil - it only takes about 2 litres, so it is not expensive to do this (and it gives me a warm feeling inside, knowing that the gears/bearings are running in clean oil). On the other hand, the special Selespeed oil gets less dirty and does not need draining/replacing, and I am told by specialists that the less interference with it, the better!

I'm not too sure if I want to go back to the workshop that left the cap off as I am thinking if they forgot about that, what else might they forget about, especially when flushing the brakes. I once had Kwik Fit mess up a gearbox on a Vauxhall so I don't really trust them kind of places!
Exactly. I have seen some horrors created by "trained professionals" in the trade - wrong size brake pads, brake pads fitted backwards, seized ABS modulator, etc. etc. which is why I always do my own work on important things like brakes - the opposite logic to what many people would apply :lol: Training is important, but it's the attitude and motivation on the job that counts. I can't comment on your local garage - they may be perfectly up to the job (and as I said before, bleeding the brakes requires no special equipment)... it will have to be your decision there!

I think on the whole, "you get what you pay for" when paying other people to work on a car, so while I have no specific advice for where you should go (unless you happen to move to New Zealand :p), in general a workshop that specialises in Alfa Romeo/FIAT, that has a good reputation to uphold, and that seems to be run by nice friendly people who seem to actually LIKE you and your car - that is the type of place to go, even if it costs more than local garages/Kwik Fit, etc. In the long run, it will pay off... good luck :)

-Alex
 
#5 ·
Alex, many thanks for your comments, I really appreciate you taking the time to clear those few points up for me; after much googling about the subject and not finding a lot of information I'm less confused now and happier about the mecahanic doing the brake flush tomorrow!

I think I will get him to check the gearbox oil for me, as I'm sure it has probably been looked over up until now.

I have noticed the brakes starting to 'squeak' a bit more this past day or two and I think there is a slight 'scobing' noise from drivers side wheel. Do you think this would be sorted after the brake flush anyhows or do you think I should ask the mechanic to check for the new pads rubbing/too close to the discs?

Cheers
 
#6 ·
I have noticed the brakes starting to 'squeak' a bit more this past day or two and I think there is a slight 'scobing' noise from drivers side wheel. Do you think this would be sorted after the brake flush anyhows or do you think I should ask the mechanic to check for the new pads rubbing/too close to the discs?
Mention it to the mechanic; brake noises are generally either a stone stuck in a shield or the pads vibrating in the caliper (the cure for the latter is to coat the backs of the pads with high-temperature grease or special anti-squeal coating) but it would be unlikely that you would have such noise soon after having new pads fitted. Disc pads are 'self adjusting' - they find their own position, so can't be 'too close to the discs'. I'd say this is probably nothing to worry about - brakes can make all sorts of noises - but mention it anyway.

-Alex
 
#7 ·
Hi

Got the car back this evening, the mech didn't get a chance to get all the work done today...not sure what was or wasn't done as the wife just picked it up but got new back box fitted thats for sure!

She feels like a new girl going up through the gears and at lower revs, feels really keen to go now..

I'm just wondering whether this would be a result of new back box being fitted or do you think he got the gear oil changed and this is why she feels much better now?

The brakes haven't been bled yet though I know that much!
 
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