Help, lost my tdc position

Hi everyone, need some help quickly, stuck due to lack of concentration.
Started doing my cambelt change last week, but the weather had stopped play, resumed today and really must get this done over the weekend.
Problem...I had left the car with the camblocks on, cam sprockets slackend off and the cam belt off (not busted) I just decided to have a go and do the change myself, the new tensioner and idler already fitted.
Started work on it today but due to lack of concentration and some distraction, (why do 3 different persons all come along at the most important moment ?)
Anyway I have some how turned the crankshaft off tdc with the cams locked, and need to know how to tell which tdc position is the correct one with number one cylinder at tdc, as it can be at tdc on both turns of the crank, and the markings on the crank pulley will still indicate tdc and the tdc gauge will still indicate tdc, but at which stroke ? the cams have the locking blocks on them and the crank will easily turn by hand, so I need to find a different reference point to confirm that I have number one at the correct tdc firing stroke position.
Is there a mark to align anywhere else on the engine ?
Please hurry I need to finish this today.
Email direct if you can please.

PLace a rod/long screwdriver or such like in the plug hole of the #1 cylinder, now gently turn the crank BY HAND till the rod/sd is at it's highes position. This very reason is why when you do the job properly there is a DTI in the #1 plug hole.

Hi Smaky, thanks, but I have a DTI in plug hole number one, that is what I mean by the "gauge" I have the correct tools, but when the crank is turned there are two tdc positions.
The crankshaft (as per instructions is rotated twice...problem is how do I know which tdc is the one I want for number one as the piston will reach tdc on each revolution, my fear is that I may be 180 deg out
so I am looking for another tdc line up indication, say for example is there anywhere on the flywheel end that also shows tdc for number one cylinder. when I was doing this my attention was distracted.
Now I am not too certain where I am, because the cams were not connected as the belt was already removed, the cams were locked with the setting blocks.
amy advice please.

I'm not sure that it matters to be honest. Most engines operate on the lost spark priciple which means that the ignition sparks on the exhaust stroke as well as the compression stroke.
I'm guessing that injection timing is done by some kind of sensor on one of the cam shafts.
All the above is guess work though as i'm not sure on the Alfa TS engines!

Plus you will only be able to turn the crank so far before the pistons hit the valves! (Assuming you havent taken the cam shafts out).

Be careful.

Thanks Rockhopper, problem is the crank has been rotated without the belt on, but the camshafts were locked at the correct tdc position with the timing lock blocks.
The crank was turned two revolutions by hand, and was easy to turn, no contact seems to have occured.
Looking at the cam lobe/valve positions it looks like the setting position means that no valves at that moment are open fully, could be lucky.
I assume that one would certainly feel some definate resistance if a piston were to touch a valve especially when cranking very slowly by hand, sure I can feel compression resitance but nothing harsh enough to say, whoops that felt like a definate blockage.
In the cycle of the crank/pistons how do I know at what position of tdc is the correct tdc for number one to be on its firing stroke so I can reset the whole thing ?
Apart from the notch on the crank / belt sprocket are there any other indicators on the engine anywhere ? as the notch will reach tdc at both firing stroke and exhaust stroke, so my question is simply one is the firing stroke and which is the exhaust stroke of number one cylinder which is the firing stroke.
Please.......

It needs to be at TDC on the firing stroke doesn't it. Can you not connect the ht lead/coil pack to a spare spark plug, and laying it on a piece of cloth away from everything else (deffo including fingers),turn ignition on WITHOUT engaging starter motor and if you then rotate crankshaft won't the plug spark when it's at TDC on the correct stroke

Like i said, i'm not sure it matters if the engine is 180 out.
Lets think about it for a while. If all thats rotating with the crankshaft is the crank, pistons and flywheel then it can't matter. The other itmes that rotate are the cam shafts and you have taken the belt off so they can't move. So if all the above is true how is the engine going to know if its 180 out? Answer - it can't!! It must be the cam shafts that determine ignition and injection timing.
However like i also said above - some engines (infact i think most engines) fire the ignition on the exhaust stroke as well as the pickup is mounted on the flywheel. On older engines the distributer is driven at half engine speed directly from the crank you in that case its important to get the rotor arm pointing the right way when number one is at TDC.
Infact i've just checked and the TS engines are indeed a lost spark system so it can be 180 out and it doesn't matter.

The inlet cam lobes on cylinder 1 need to be facing backwards for it to be the compression stroke.. There is a marker on the bottom part of the cambelt cover that aligns with the auxillary belt drive pulley.
Its easy enough to fit both of then to find TDC. Then when the cam locking tools fit you are all aligned correctly.

you r blinded by too much science just fit the f ing belt using dti gauge and cam locks, totally idiot proof

stop beating round the bush belladonna tell him how it is

Hi everyone who has taken the trouble to think about my situation, and a big thanks to all for your very much appreciated input.
Rockhopper, you are thinking correctly, so give yourself a "Blue Peter Badge"
I swallowed my silly pride this morning and telephone Mr Porter, who confirmed (more or less) exactly what Rockhopper said, the frecking engine has no idea as far as the crank and pistons are concerned, and as a matter of interest which will disprove some myths....
If you have the "Cam Locks" on you can rotate the crank by hand with
out the belt without striking any valves...Jeff Porter agreed with me on this, but added that it is very very close, so go easy.
The "Cam Locks" are designed for setting up not only new belts, but also in the case if one has done a rebuild.....how do they do it at the factory ? (with cam locks I guess) how else ?
Anyway the job is done now plus balance belt, finish off tomorrow and fire her up....
I do have the dti gauge, the locks, the tension tools, and the cam sprocket tools, but my dial gauge is a little old and dodgery like me.
It is ok to make comments from afar, but when it is your car and you are struggling with the old confidence it rattles the nerves.
This was a precautionary maintenance job, car has been mine from new and only done 10k miles, but it is a 2001 so anticipating a run abroad I thought lets do it all now.
Also fitting oil temp and oil pressure gauges, made a nice ashtray replacement section in carbon fibre, so in go the senders once I have completed my service jobs.
Rocky will let you know how it turns out tomorrow.

There is ONLY one TDC not two !!!!!!!

If the belts are on then you have TDC on the exhaust stoke and also on the compression stroke.
Glad you got it sorted in the end Martyn!

If the cam locks are on the cams cant turn, so theres only one TDC position.

I've got my fingers crossed that she fires up for you, and you should give yourself a big pat on the back anyway, just for rolling up your sleeves and getting your hands dirty!
If it all works ok you'll also have saved a couple of hundred quid in labour costs as well, so stick a bottle of bubbly in the fridge and take the missus out for a nice meal to make up for your no doubt stressful week!

On a TS engine with the belts off then yes thats true. We'd established that a while back though.

I see where you are confused.

There is only 1 TDC position, and when it says turn the engine over, it means spin the crank 2 full turns and return it to TDC then try to fit the camlocks again, If they go on then jobs a goodun and the correct belt is fitted, if they dont then you have the wrong belt and need to get the correct one, OR you have not got the belt at the correct tension.

The wrong belt problem stems form the changeover from CF1 to CF2 type TS engine where as I recall the CF1 had 1 less tooth on the belt (or something like that) many of them where wronly packaged and placed on shelves everywhere, so it was cheaper to incorperate that check into the job than hunt every warehouse shelf.

There is a tdc mark on the flywheel this will help you to which 180 side your looking for, for piece of mind anyway!

Good evening everyone who offered their help and advice.
The results are I got it right the first time, spanners 1, being such a fuss pot zero.
Finished off last night with only the covers and fanny belt to fit this morning, did that and crossed my legs.
Fired up straight away, no problem, warmed up nicely and revs as before excellent.
This job did take me a while because I am one of those people who like everything spotless, I clean all the components, de rust all the sprockets, and double check everything, it is just my way of being sure (you know clean engine type)
What put me off my stroke (pun) was that in the middle of setting up the new cambelt and tensioner I was distracted by 3 people one after the other, I tried to continue in the way as to demonstrate (look I am in the middle of something here) but too polite to say bogger off mate.
I just lost out on how many turns I had gien the crank so decided to start over again. When I was setting up the second time I movede the crank with the cams locked and suddenly felt a sickly trickle down my back and started to be very concerned incase I may have done some damage.
As it turns out all was ok, and so was the tdc position.
Many thanks to all for your encouragement and remarks to push me along.

Pleased you got it sorted and I hope you have gained a little confidence

Evening All,
The TDC/Cambelt saga..just thought you should know that I went for whizz tonight to test out my efforts,
Well the news it very good, runs like when she was new, sharp responsive and smooth.
Nice new Selenia oil in, new paraflu mixture, new belts and braces,
clean and serviced red dot discs and pads, everything tightend up
and a sparkling engine, all ready for the summer.
Just got to finish off installing my oil pressure and oil temp gauges the senders are in and wired, so not too long a job.
On thinking back over the saga of doing the belts, I was right first time, but lost my way and thus the old confidence starts to slide.
Cheers for now.