145 QV not turning over - Alfa Romeo Forum
You are currently unregistered, register for more features.    
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
(Post Link) post #1 of 39 Old 29-04-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: hertfordshire
145 QV not turning over

Hi... hope someone can help with this problem .. I will try to keep it short.
Bought this 145 QV off a guy on ebay with engine removed, did some work to it before putting it back in , Cam belt, clutch... I only have the brown master key for it.
Anyway, engine is now fitted but it will not turn over at all, dash all lights up no yellow code light but red injector light blinks once and stays on, can here fuel pump running for a few seconds but nothing still dead.
Have thoroughly cleaned the earth lead to gearbox and It has brand new fully charged battery fitted... any ideas guys ?
many thanks any help much appreciated.
alannmss is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Status: Constantly tinkering
AO Member
 
tok78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: United Kingdom
County: Greater London
Images: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by alannmss View Post
Hi... hope someone can help with this problem .. I will try to keep it short.
Bought this 145 QV off a guy on ebay with engine removed, did some work to it before putting it back in , Cam belt, clutch... I only have the brown master key for it.
Anyway, engine is now fitted but it will not turn over at all, dash all lights up no yellow code light but red injector light blinks once and stays on, can here fuel pump running for a few seconds but nothing still dead.
Have thoroughly cleaned the earth lead to gearbox and It has brand new fully charged battery fitted... any ideas guys ?
many thanks any help much appreciated.
Electrical fault finding - hooray!

Is the starter motor good? Can you get a response when you apply a lead directly from the battery onto the terminal?

Are the injectors and injector wiring all good?

Is the wiring from the key good?

It might be a key memory issue?Can you try and hotwire the car?
This link talks about key code memory - don't think it's totally relevant to what you need though.
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-...aking-one.html (Master Key / Brown Key - Making one?!)
tok78 is offline  
(Post Link) post #3 of 39 Old 29-04-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: hertfordshire
Hi thanks for the reply... I will try the direct cable to starter first... how do i hot wire it ?
thanks
alannmss is offline  
Status: Constantly tinkering
AO Member
 
tok78's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: United Kingdom
County: Greater London
Images: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by alannmss View Post
Hi thanks for the reply... I will try the direct cable to starter first... how do i hot wire it ?
thanks
re hot-wiring - absolutely not going to have that discussion on a public forum!

If you can get hold of a wiring diagram, it should help you ensure the connections are good.

Keep us posted.
tok78 is offline  
(Post Link) post #5 of 39 Old 29-04-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: hertfordshire
Just noticed something else, when I turn the key to MAR the only lights that come on are ABS,HANDBRAKE, MAX COOLANT LIGHT and INJECTION ... after a few seconds ABS and HANDBRAKE go out...
alannmss is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: United Kingdom
County: Greater London
You need to run a diagnostic on the car.

Think there is one you can download as freeware - ask around on the forum. Cables are on eBay. (Over 5 years since I did this)
tiktok is offline  
QV2
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
County: -
I echo what tiktok says. You need to run some diagnostics on the car to avoid any guesswork. It's easy enough to do. Get yourself some cables off eBay (will cost around a tenner) and download the free version of Multiecuscan. It's a worthwhile investment and could save you much head scratching in the future. All you need to know is in the following thread on the Alfa 145 forum...



EDIT:

Just another thought...does the CODE light come on at all? When you turn the ignition to MAR it should come on for a short period of time and then go out again. If it's not doing that then you need to make sure that a CODE Immobiliser ECU box is actually present in the car and that it's properly plugged in. You need to remove the piece of trim to the right of the steering wheel to get to it...


Also check the fuses to the CODE Immobiliser ECU box. Details of those can be found here...


Last edited by QV2; 30-04-16 at 23:21. Reason: Info added to do with the CODE Immobiliser ECU
QV2 is offline  
(Post Link) post #8 of 39 Old 02-05-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: hertfordshire
Hi QV2, thanks for the reply, have downloaded Multiecuscan and ordered the cables as you suggested, No key code lights up at all so i just checked to see if the Code ECU is present and it is, disconnected and reconnected the 2 white cables to it, checked all fuses under there too, still no joy.
What i did notice was some relays missing on the fuse board.... i only have the second one in from the left on the top row but according to the hand book the 1st and last are spares and the 3rd from left is only for direction and hazards which is strange as they work with no relay ! the other one not there is for a sunroof which the car doesn't have anyway.
Do you know that if it was a code ecu problem would that account for why half the warning lights would not show with key turned to mar ? many thanks
alannmss is offline  
QV2
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
County: -
This is the fuse box on my phase 2 so you can compare it with what is in yours: http://forum.alfa145.com/uploads/mon...1188149775.jpg

I can't remember exactly which lights come on in the instrument cluster when the ignition switch is turned to MAR and I can't check unfortunately because my car currently has it's engine out with all the electrics disconnected. However, I can tell you for sure that when the ignition key is switched to MAR that the CODE light should come on. It will then either remain on or immediately go out again. You can see the expected behaviour on a test bench setup in one of my YouTube videos here: https://youtu.be/QIlWMWde7eg

What is the state of the relays and fuses in front of the battery? These are the most common cause of many ECU and CODE Immobiliser related issues so I would look here first. Make sure all the relays are working and that the spade connectors on them are free of any oxidation (use scotchbrite or wire wool to give them a really good clean up and then apply some electrical grease or vaseline). Also, make sure the spade connectors in the connection blocks are also free of oxidation and are nice and tight (squeeze then together a bit with some pliers if necessary).

Once you have done the above, if you still have issues then the next thing to do is to use a multimeter to check that you are getting power to the CODE Immobiliser ECU. There should be a permanent +12v power on pin 3 of connector A (red wire), and +12 on pin 8 of connector A (orange & light blue wire) when the ignition is switched to MAR. Also check that pin 4 of connector A (black wire) has continuity with any exposed metal point on the car.

Here is a pinout diagram for the CODE Immobiliser: http://oi68.tinypic.com/vr688h.jpg
QV2 is offline  
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: United Kingdom
County: West Sussex
Images: 38
try fuel cut off switch under passenger seat and pop back in also
ryezy is offline  
(Post Link) post #11 of 39 Old 02-05-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: hertfordshire
Thanks for the reply ... Will do those checks tomorrow .. You said about the fuel cut off but I can here the pump and there is fuel at the engine .. Also from what I've read the engine would still crank if the fuel was cut off.. Is that true in your opinion .. Cheers
alannmss is offline  
QV2
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
County: -
Yes, the engine would still crank over of the fuel cut-off switch had been tripped. Still worth checking it hasn't been tripped though because once you get the main issue resolved you don't want that causing you any further headaches.

While the immobiliser may not be the only issue preventing the engine from cranking, the fact that you having no CODE light coming on at all means it is definitely one of the causes of your problem.
QV2 is offline  
(Post Link) post #13 of 39 Old 03-05-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: hertfordshire
Hi QV2, I have done the checks on the Code immobiliser ECU as suggested and there is permanent power on pin 3 and continuity on Pin 8. Did this check before the BBoB check as the bottom of the dash was already removed. If the ECU is showing power would that eliminate any problem with the BBob or do you think I should do that too, I have checked the relays and they work fine but have noticed a drop in voltage on the Main black relay from 12v to 8v when the egnition is turned to MAR... thinking I will do a full strip of the connectors and solder all new spades on, is there a knack to getting the old spades out of the connector blocks ?
alannmss is offline  
(Post Link) post #14 of 39 Old 03-05-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: hertfordshire
Sorry got that wrong permanent power on pin 3 .. +12v on pin 8 with ignition at MAR and continuity on pin 4...
alannmss is offline  
QV2
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
County: -
The fact that the CODE Immobiliser ECU is getting power means that you should at least be getting the yellow CODE warning light illuminating in the instrument cluster. That suggests that there is either a problem with the CODE Immobiliser ECU, a problem with the signal wire between the CODE Immobiliser ECU and the instrument cluster, or that the yellow CODE warning light LED inside the instrument cluster is blown.

If your multimeter has a fast enough response time and/or is one that will retain min and max voltage values, you can use that to check for the momentary (or permanent) presence of a voltage on the CODE warning light signal pin. Hook up the negative lead of your multimeter to pin 2 on connector A of the CODE Immobiliser ECU and hook up the positive lead to pin 3 of connector A. Then switch on the ignition and observe if there is any sign of 12v appearing on on the multimeter screen. Even better, if you happen to possess an oscilloscope then hook that up instead of a multimeter as it will give you a definitive visual indication of what is going on with the signal on the CODE warning light pin.

  1. No voltage: There is some kind of fault with the CODE Immobiliser ECU iteslf.

  2. A momentary voltage which then disappears completely: The CODE Immobiliser ECU is working fine and has successfully de-immobilised your engine which means that your engine not turning over is caused by something else.

  3. A permanent voltage: The CODE Immobiliser ECU is working fine but the the engine is still immobilised because of a problem either validating the transponder in the key, or because of a communication issue with the engine ECU.


Try doing the above electrical test and report back with what you find.
QV2 is offline  
(Post Link) post #16 of 39 Old 04-05-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: hertfordshire
Hi, Think I may be getting out of my electrical depth here now..... time to find a good Auto electrician I think... The main problem for me is that I bought the car with the engine removed and in bits so I can not feel sure about anything on it even to the extent where I dont even know if the engine ECU is the correct one ... Is there an easy check to see if it all matches .. Key/Key Code ECU/ Engine ECU ?
alannmss is offline  
QV2
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
County: -
Without a visual CODE warning light it is going to be difficult to diagnose anything while the ECUs are all still in your car. However, the fact that you have a master key is a good position to be in if it turns out to be paired with the Engine ECU.

If you want verification that what you have actually works, whether or not the Engine ECU you have is one that is paired with the CODE Immobiliser ECU, and whether the master key you have is paired with either of the ECUs, I have the equipment to check and confirm that for you on my workbench but if you wanted that done you would have to send me your Engine ECU, Code Immobiliser ECU and the master key that came with the car.
QV2 is offline  
(Post Link) post #18 of 39 Old 05-05-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: hertfordshire
Thats really kind of you QV2 ... is it ok to give you my email address through the forum?
alannmss is offline  
(Post Link) post #19 of 39 Old 05-05-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: hertfordshire
I have been trying on and off all yesterday to connect Mulitecuscan to the car but no joy with that either.. not finding the engine ECU for whatever reason...
alannmss is offline  
QV2
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
County: -
To avoid getting inundated with spam I suggest you send me your email address via personal message rather than posting it in plain view on a public forum.

Regarding the diagnostics, just to check:-

  1. You are connecting the cable to the 3-pin connector on the top of the O/S front suspension strut aren't you? (i.e. not the one on the other side which is for the ABS).
  2. You are connecting the crocodile clip of the red fly-lead to the +ve terminal of the battery aren't you?
  3. You are switching the ignition to the MAR position before trying to connect with Multiecuscan aren't you?
QV2 is offline  
(Post Link) post #21 of 39 Old 05-05-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: hertfordshire
Hi QV2, Yes to all three.... I tried to PM you but its saying that you have not set up for receiving PMs..
alannmss is offline  
(Post Link) post #22 of 39 Old 06-05-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: hertfordshire
Hi QV2, I managed to do the second multimeter test you suggested on the code ECU and found a permanent 12v as point 3 in your post...
alannmss is offline  
QV2
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
County: -
The permanent 12v means the CODE light is permanently lit (if you could see it) so that is certainly one reason why your engine isn't turning over.

Before I start spouting off a load more diagnostic steps for you to perform, I had a thought. Is your ECU properly and securely bolted down to the throttle body? And is the brown earth wire that comes out of the loom with a crimped eyelet on attached to one of those bolts? If it's not then nothing is going to work because the Engine ECU won't have an earth connection. You can see the location of the Engine ECU earth in the first picture of this post and you can see all the earth connections from the engine loom and where they need to go to in this post. You need to make sure all of these are connected to avoid any issues. Use a multimeter to check/confirm continuity between the metal body of the Engine ECU and the negative terminal of the battery.

Also, while you're at it, remove the 2 plugs from the top of the ECU and check that none of the pins have got bent. When this happens they usually end up folded down at the bottom. If there are any like this then be very careful unbending them because if they end up snapping off you will be in even bigger trouble.

EDIT: My PMs now appear to be active. Seems that I needed 12 posts before I could use that feature which I now have.

Last edited by QV2; 07-05-16 at 09:32. Reason: My PMs are now active -> updated sentence relating to PMs
QV2 is offline  
(Post Link) post #24 of 39 Old 09-05-16 Thread Starter
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: hertfordshire
Hi QV2, Have checked all earths and continuity and all is fine, also checked both sockets on ECU also both fine.
Have sent you a pm with email and phone number.. thanks
alannmss is offline  
QV2
Status: -
AO Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
County: -
OK, I think you're going to have to bite the bullet and start doing continuity checks on the Engine ECU and CODE Immobiliser ECU wiring. If the CODE Immobiliser ECU cannot talk to the Engine ECU then that is one reason why the CODE light in the instrument cluster will remain illuminated (or why a constant +12v is present on pin 2 of connector A as in your case).

I think it will also help your cause if you find out why the CODE light isn't illuminating in the instrument cluster so you don't need to keep messing around with a multimeter to see whether or not the CODE light is illuminated. The problem isn't with the CODE Immobiliser ECU because you are getting 12v from pin 2 of connector A so it must either be with the wiring between the CODE Immobiliser ECU or a problem with the CODE light circuit inside the instrument cluster. The first thing to do is to check continuity between pin 8 of connector A (pink & black wire) on the CODE Immobiliser ECU and pin 8 of connector B (pink and black wire) on the instrument cluster. Connector B is on the right-hand side as you look at the instrument cluster from the front (this picture shows it from the rear). If there is continuity you will know the problem is inside the instrument cluster, otherwise it will be due to the pink & black wire being broken wire somewhere.

To check the communication wire between the CODE Immobiliser ECU and the Engine ECU, check for continuity on pin 8 of connector A (white & green wire) on the CODE Immobiliser ECU and pin 16 of connector A on the Engine ECU (pinouts for the Engine ECU are HERE).

Also, if you haven't already done so then check that there is a permanent 12v on pin 18 of connector A of the Engine ECU and 12v on pin 8 when the ignition is switched to the MAR position. For those last two voltage checks, it is important that you put the negative lead of the multimeter on one of the bolts that is holding the Engine ECU to the throttle body.

If you think any of this is starting to get beyond your capabilities then it might be worth thinking about getting an auto electrician out to check everything over for you.

Last edited by QV2; 09-05-16 at 18:30. Reason: Additional info added
QV2 is offline  
Reply

Go Back   Alfa Romeo Forum > Supported Alfa Romeo Models > Technical & Vehicle Assistance > Alfa 145 & 146

Tags
145 , turning

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome