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Supercharging the unreliability

16K views 53 replies 21 participants last post by  Laptop_Matt 
#1 ·
Was a nice day yesterday and I had some free time so I decided to check out and weigh the components of the Autodelta supercharger kit that I picked up a while ago. There has been comments on here for years stating that it is not worth supercharging the 2.0 as the weight of all the components add up to the weight of a V6!

It was previously on a 166 TS which was stripped because of rear end damage or something. Had been on it for 2 years apparently so has probably done 20k miles?

Its good to think that someone paid over £4000 for this kit.

Not an expert at all with engines or superchargers but It looks fairly simple; ie Supercharger as a custom bracket and fits in the place of the Air con pump and the air con pump is extended out the way with a very thick iron bracket. A large aux belt then goes round everything.

The Supercharger has its own oil reservoir (great another dipstick to check!) and oil cooler which looks in good condition.

There is a BMC induction kit, Intercooler in good nic, another MAF, Bailey Motorsport dump valve, Bigger Injectors, Autodelta remapped ECU, Modified intake manifold, custom pipes etc.

Intercooler - 2.95 KG
Induction Kit & Pipe - 1.80 KG
Dump Valve & Pipe - 2.25 KG
Rotrex Supercharger - 7.66 KG
Oil Cooler - 1.20 KG
Oil Reservoir & Pipes - 1.20 KG
Air Con Bracket - 0.80 KG
Misc Pipes - 0.55 KG
Intake Manifold - 4.54 KG

Minus the intake manifold as this is obviously already on we are looking at a weight increase of 18.41 KG so with the oil added call it 20 KG?

2.0 Selespeed Sportwagon : 1300 KG (1320 KG with supercharger)
3.2 GTA Sportwagon : 1460 KG

So thats a weight saving of 140 KG off the front end which should maintain TS handling :cool:
 

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#38 ·
I'm thinking integrale stylee :). Wonder what the TS would be like with both.

Do you know which cosworth bearings fit the ts bottom end? I see AHM use them in their crank kit but its nearly 4k alone!

AH Motorsports
 
#41 ·
i used to have a 2003 focus st170, not an alfa i know but i fitted on my driveway in a weekend a powerworks supercharger conversion from canada, it actually reolaces the inlet manifold etc on the focus, 173 bhp to 296 in a weekend with basic tools, remapped at performance 3000 rrd at 296 bhp, 272 lb/ft, 0-60 in 5.2 was an awesome car after....

when car was standard i used to get 260 miles to a tank app £60, after supercharging i used to get at least 340 miles when driving normally, although a day at castle coombe thrashing the life out of it seen it give 97 miles to a full tank lol.

the moral is any car can be economical if driven sensibly
 
#42 ·
Interesting thread, I've had a fair bit of experience with supercharged engines although they were a bit more 'old school' than the Alfa TS engines. I've had/rebuilt/tweaked several Lancia Volumex engines and applied that supercharger technology to otherwise largely standard Fiat/Lancia twin-cams.
Some of that knowledge may be relevant to fitting a supercharger to a normally aspirated engine, even something considerably more next generation than the venerable twin cam.

The extra torque that a supercharger delivers from the moment you turn the key is impressive, always makes even a smaller engine feel like a relaxed large lump. Sure, there is a power sap as the engine is working slightly harder to keep the blower moving but it's relatively unimportant.

In one incarnation of my Beta coupé I fitted a Volumex supercharger system to an otherwise standard 2 litre twin-cam with no issues at all, although I toyed with the idea at the time of fitting different pistons they were way out of my budget so that idea was scrubbed. The bottom end of the engine was thoroughly overhauled and, as the oil pump and sump design on the old Lancias was a bit useless, a dry sump system from Accusump was fitted. An inter-cooler would have been nice but as the car ran standard Volumex induction (carb) I never got around to fitting one.

I guess what I'm saying is that you don't necessarily have to fit forged pistons or lower the compression, although it may be prudent depending on how much boost the blower is producing. I knew a couple of guys who simply fitted a spacer head gasket which effectively lowered the compression a smidgen to make them feel the engine was 'safe'. The fact the kit in the pics has an inter-cooler is good IMHO, more power and more reliability from a cooled charge. The oil cooler is a must to save the bottom end.

I don't know how relevant this next bit will be, but when it comes to cams (on the old Volumex engine) I changed out the inlet cam only. This was something Guy Croft had been doing for a while and at the time had up on his website - may still be there somewhere. With vernier timing pulleys I was running a standard exhaust cam and a slightly re-profiled Strada 130TC inlet cam. Power? Well somewhere in the region of 165bhp and I forget the torque figure - it was big. Not bad for a less than rev-happy old school twin-cam.

With a more modern engine I confess I'd have thought the same route on cams would be even more practical but possibly with an after-market ECU (an Emerald system for example) to allow for very accurate timing/fuelling etc. Does the Auodelta ECU allow for full mapping?

A quick word on fuel use - a supercharged engine when 'horsed' will drink fuel like you would not believe, I think the lowest figure I saw on an animated run across the Highlands in the company of an Impreza was in the region of 14mpg but on the other hand a run down to Bath at the national speed limit (honest officer) to see family saw 44mpg on the motorway......
I miss that car and the (various) incarnations of Volumex engine I ran in it. So I hope to see more on this 2.0 TS conversion as time goes on, just my cup of tea :thumbs: Just hope 'she who must be obeyed' doesn't see I'm getting the spanner twitch again ;)
 
#44 ·
That was one hell of an upgrade mozzy!

Some good information there INS147 thanks.

So it still may be possible to keep the C&B inlet cam along with the supercharger, but change the exhaust cam back to standard.

I think the Autodelta kit did come with a thicker head gasket, although there was no sign of it on the 166 that this kit came off?
 
#45 ·
i have avideo of the first time i ran it once fitted and again on rolling road, was a cracking car but ex missus convinced me it was not practicle unfortunatly and i bought a land rover lol, wish to god i kept the focus to be honest. this is the kit i used
Google Image Result for http://focussport.com/images/powerworks2_640.gif

was worth every penny, i used to be a major ford fan lol......one thing i never bothered with on the st170 was the gearbox which was silly, the gearing was crap, yes 50 mph in 1st 72 mph in 2nd 103 in 3rd sounds mental but its really poor because if i fitted a rs gearbox i would have had an lsd and acceleration would have been better.
 
#48 · (Edited)
No progress yet, just discussions with my tuner. I want my body work perfect before I spend any more on the engine.

Think that I am going to get a TS spider that has lost its cambelt, rebuild the engine with low compression forged pistons and reprofiled cams suitable for the supercharger & fit it in my sportwagon along with the supercharger kit + management for a 5th injector to get it hopefully over 250bhp

My current engine is tuned a bit too much the opposite way for supercharging and is running really well so I dont want to strip it. I'll put that in the spider :cool:
 
G
#49 ·
Just read this thread with interest. I myself have been using forced induction on my cars over the past 20 years, either turbo conversions or , as my last car, supercharged.
There appears to be alot of confusion on here though.

turbo or supercharging will create heat, which is a limiting factor,on a standard engine, as is boost pressure which causes pinking or knock. things have to be matched accordingly

the kit on here is a centrifugal type charger, which is more peaky than a roots style (as jag or merc). they work more like a belt driven turbo and are more effiecient higher up the rev range compared to a roots blower.
it will run all the time, but should bypass when off throttle/crusing/vacuum, so no economy issueson fuel consumption. however they are on boost as soon as you jump on the throttle, and ramp up reasonably linear

blowers are also parasitic and use powwer from the engine to run the blower. my mp62 i had on my bmw used approx 25-30hp to drive it at max rpm.

i spent alot of time on that install and ended up with my 1.9l bmw at 230hp (up from 140). roots type blower running at 10.5psi. standard engine, mapped and let the knock sensors retard ignition when necessary. heat was the limiting factor on that install. big exhaust was needed to clear gases. turbo would have made more power for same boost as no belt losses.

go with the supercharger, fit at least a 2.5" pipe all the way through and a sports cat. and get a decent remap and wideband lamda. as soon as things run lean and underfuel you'll hole a piston or burn a valve out. remap and wideband are essential

oh, and ensure the s/c mounts correctly as if the belts are not aligned or tension is incorrect you will damage the bearings on the blower

good fun though

i intend to boost my ts next year.
 
#51 ·
I was just curious how 'adaptive' modern ECUs are. My 15 year old Volvo turbo has knock sensors and you can ramp up the turbo boost on these to pretty much double the power without remapping as the ECU copes. Do modern petrol Alfas have knock sensors? If so can you not add a supercharger with stock pistons etc safe in the knowledge that the ECU would keep the engine from blowing. I suspect I know the answer to this one but was curious :)

Keith
 
#52 ·
I reading this and I do not understand why there is an issue with fuel consumption.

You should remember that in both the turbo and superchargers' cases they aim to increase the efficiency of the engine. However, a turbo only gets to that once it has spooled up. A supercharger is always there. UNLESS ...

---In modern supercharged engines the blower is by-passed when not needed (low throttle posotions). When you push-on an electrically operated pulley (like the one on your ac) is activated and the charger spooles into action. I have never been a fan of this setup because of its complexity and prefer the "always-on" type.---

This brings me back to my previous point, the efficiency and the consumption.

When the efficiency is increased your engine hp is increased. Now, where you previously needed to depress your throttle say 50% to maintain 70mph you'll now only need to depress it say 30% to get the same 70mph. Oviously the calc's are not as simple as that but you get the picture.
So the decision you are left with is, "How do I get a better gear ratio?"

In VW they used a lot of generic parts so we used to mix & match for a certain ratio. I am new to Alfa ownership so I cannot say if we can do the same.
But why not look at some of the diesel boxes and maybe and size or two up or down on the tyres to get the ratio you'd like (+ the appropriate calibration of the speedo).

Let me just say, I love your idea. :thumbs: :cool: :thumbs: I wonder if somebody out there has done this to a diesel powered car (any car for starters)?

Maybe I should start a thread on that!!
 
#54 ·
Saw Peak Alfa's supercharged 3.2 arese V6, its 450bhp and its at 300bhp at only 3000rpm!

Definitely giving them the work :cool:
 
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